Theos-Talk Archives (April 1998 Message tt00294)

Bjorn:
>And the idea of the Guru - chela relationship was clearly subscribed to by
>K and
>M, as well as the other adepts behind the TS. When K turned against the
>guru-chela relationship he turned against his own teachers/gurus and the
>plan he
>was a part of.

I would also say that even K and M cannot be sure what the plan is. K and
M have said that they are also fallible. Perhaps Krisnamurti turning
against the guru-chela relationship is the plan. My only argument is that,
it happened, therefore it MUST be the plan.

>You are probably right that K saw misuse of "guru" power, as well as misuse of
>the discipleship role. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good
>solution, though.

K served his function. It is up to each of us to take all that we know and
make the best of it. K is only an organ in the body of the cosmos.

Devotion to a guru is a way of letting go of boundaries, which is also a
way of opening up to higher knowledge through intuition. With full
devotion, which probably means you let go of any material wealth and all
questioning, you can discard the lower ego's necessity for material
self-sufficiency, intellectual analysis and skepticism, and hence some
boundaries of the mind. This would be successful only if placed in the
hands of a loving guru who would not abuse that power. At the worst end of
the guru-chela relationship, we would have cults such as the Heaven's Gate,
in which the releasing of boundaries results in inhabiting the
misconceptions of the guru.

For those who are not sure that there is a living human being in existence
who you can entrust your soul to (for you will be, in a chela-guru
relationship), some boundaries will have to remain intact, such as
self-sufficiency and discernment. The route to enlightenment will be
harder, because it will require a combination of conceptualization and
letting go of conceptualization. It requires strong focus in order to let
go of the boundaries long enough to intuitively understand the
incomprehensible and then to put the clothing back on to function in our
world. Truly, you cannot function in this world without boundaries. By
this method, the road will be foggier and all you can do is be aware of
what the cosmos is trying to tell you. No planning for the end of the
world according to any guru! :o)

>I remember reading some interesting passages by K in the Mahatma letters, about
>the guru-chela relationship. Perhaps I should try to find them. His statements
>did confirm some of what you say about the "strong" position of the Guru.

I remember vaguely about that. If you could find it, that would be great.
If it's not too inconvenient, perhaps you can post them. Or perhaps Doss
has them. I'll have to scope my library.

>> I cannot dispute your personal experiences with K's philosophy. Each
>> person has to find what is best for him/her. If K's philosophy did not
>> work for you, then it was best to find something else.
>
>I guess we can argue about this forever, only that you are far too nice
>for that
>being any fun for me.

I actually love to argue passionately and devilishly. Of course, this is
only fun if the party you are arguing with and the audience know that you
are having fun. Otherwise, it can be harrowing for the participant and the
audience. I've toned down quite a bit since joining the theosophy lists.

>> For some others,
>> however, it was highly fulfilling, or else he would not have followers.
>
>There are many pretty strange gurus and leaders who have plenty of followers,
>all the way to a Hitler and other Black magicians. Many of their followers
>would
>say that being such is "highly fulfilling", so that does not prove too much.

Well, what does Doss have to say about being compared to followers of
Hitler and Black magicians??? :o)

>Ultimately we make something our God. Following K's teachings, what would
>it be?

The God is our creative self, our divine self.

>You DEFINITELY seem to lack many of the undesirable traits of HPB. Try again!

Ooh, I better go smoke some hashish!
Sorry, Dallas, again.

Thoa :o)