Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00068)

May 3rd 1998

Dear "Ringading"  Frank:

Some comments below in addition :                Dal

> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" <ringding@csi.com>
> Date: Saturday, May 02, 1998 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Coherence

>Dear Dallas,
>I thank you for your many good comments to my comments about
>Paul's theory. Good to hear that you could agree with me in all
>points except the following one (I don't reply to your claim
that
>GdeP was superficial  as this is for now of minor importance
>and I believe with his surviving personal pupils that the time
is
>yet to come for the theos. public to recognize him in the right
>way and we today still have the bad situation that the most
>theosophists of today not even are aware who HPB was). Following
>my comment to Paul and your reply conc. the ES of New York:
>
>>..................................SNIP
>----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
>
>>>Wrong. The doctrines as a whole where taught by her from
>>>the first time of her arrival in New York in the ES.
>>>Judge certifies i.e. that he was been taught about
>>>reincarnation in 1874. Judge continued to teach the
>>>esoteric doctrines when HPB installed him as leader of the
>>>E.S. in 1879, when she and Olcott were leaving for India.
>>>
>>===================================================
>>.................................SNIP
>>
>>        [ llas writes:]
>>
>>The last part of this statement is inaccurate.  Judge was
>>apparently initiated in 1874 as in 1888 HPB gives him the
>>certificate (dated Dec. 14, 1888, in the 14th year of the T S )
>>that you mention and states that he had been a "chela" for 13
>>years.  She put him in charge, as he5r "agent" of the E S
>>section in America.
>>Apparently, Olcott was offered the same "positin" for Asia and
>>India, but was not interested.  After HPB's death when the E S
>>was "reorganized," this offer was renewed to him, but he was
>>stilll uniterested.  In the book LETTERS FROM THE MASTERS OF
>>WISDOM,   Vol. 1, (1918 original edition, TPH, Adyar) starting
>>on p. 50 is an important letter from the Master sent to Olcott
>>on board of the S.S.Shannon which was still at sea.  The date
of
>>receipt was August 22, 1888.  It made it amply clear to him
that
>>their relations with HPB had not changed, and that she was
>>responsible to Them for the conduct of the Theosophical
Movement
>>as they deisred it to be.  [Portions of this letter were
printed
>>in LUCIFER for October 1888, Vol. 3, p. 145-7 -- it has also
>>been reprinted elsewhere.]
>>
>>In 1879 when HPB and Olcott left for India from New York, they
>>went as a "Delegation" of the TS, a "Committee."  The intention
>>for the T S (which had been originated in New York in late
1875,
>>and inaugurated Nov. 17th;  and which remained there, in charge
>>of Genl. Abner Doubleday as President pro tem, and Mr.
W.Q.Judge
>>who acted as Secretary) was to join forces with Dayand
Saraswati
>>and the ARYA SAMAJ  (Society of the Nobles) which Dayanand has
>>originated in India to purify Brahmanism and Hinduism among the
>>masses and the classes there.
>>
>>The story of the failure of this Arya Samaj mission is found
>>narrated in the first three volumes of THEOSOPHIST.  Dayanand
>>turned authoritarian and dictatorial which is the opposite of
>>the practice of true Theosophy.  Hence it became necessary for
>>the TS as represented by Olcott and HPB to work separately and
>>to spread the ideas and mission of the T S as quickly as
>>possible in India, Ceylon, Burma, etc...and in this they were
highly
>>successful as a history of the Theos. Movement shows.
>>Originally, and for some years the T S patterned its policies,
>>entrance, meetings, etc. after some of the Masonic methods.
>>One had to be a member in good standing to attend meetings,
>>etc...
>>That was changed later on and the meetings were increasingly
>>opened to the public at large, and the original rituals and
>>secrecy were dropped.
>>It was not until 1887/8 that a demand for a closer practice of
>>Theosophy forced the origination of the E S -- again a matter
of
>>history.  The demand originated in the USA.  In PRACTICAL
>>OCCULTISM  (Letter from W.Q.Judge, dated May 18, (1887)
>>published by Theos. University Press, Pasadena in 1981 -- pp.
>>85-6) will be found a copy of the original suggestion.  In
London (and
>>elsewhere, scattered students here and there across the world),
>>and some who had banded together in what what called then, the
>>"Inner Group," had expressed their desire to HPB for a more
>>intimate study of practial Theosophy, and, if found worthy,
>>access to some deeper aspects of the esoteric wisdom of the
>>Adepts, and perhaps, they hoped that they might become Their
>>pupils.
>>
>>Dal.
>________________________________________________________
>
>Dear Dallas,

I am sorry, but I remain to my above statement that
>Judge was made to head of the E.S. HQ in New York in 1879 by HPB
>when she was leaving for India. I have not all available primary
>sources just at hands but I remember to this sources which you
>please might consult:
>
>1. Judge says the E.S. was founded in 1875 (Practical Occultism,
>from the private letters of WQJ, TUP, p. 299, also in WQJ
>Complete works: Echoes of the Orient, II/393).
>
>2. That E.S. consisted of 7-8 members (Pract. Occ., p. 299)


========================================================
        { DALLAS ]

You are right on this.  Thanks for the correction.  I had not
noticed it.
Dallas

=========================================================

>3. This E.S. meeting's minutes were obviously signed by WQJ
since
>1879. Instance given in Theosophical History April 1995, p. 204
>by Michael Gomes where he mentions such a minute from Sept., 7,
>1887.


==========================================================

        [ DALLAS ]

I believe those Minutes relate to the Theosophical Society, and I
have seen that original 1875  Minute Book at the Pasadena T S
Archives.

Also you must recall that the  T S as originally constituted in
New York was a Secret Body of Students, with passwords, grips
 not exactly, but similar to the Masons)   Several years later
the seal of secrecyc was removed and T S meetings were made open
to the public.  In 1888 HPB started the ES.

=================================================


>4. Order from HPB from Sept. 27, 1887, with her N B "By order of
>the Secret Council" (in Theos., History, April 1995, p. 207)
>
>5. On E.S. meeting in March 29, 1896, the leaders of the E.S.
>unanimously endorsed Katherine Tingley as Judge's successor
>(Greenwalt, Point Loma Pubc., p. 17) and related to her School
of
>Antiquity (ibed., p. 92). KT worked as O.H. of the E.S. at the
>latest in 1893 (ibed., p. 73)


=================================================

        [ DALLAS ]

Is the last line accurate as to date ?  If she was elected after
Judge died, Then she could not have been functioning as  OH in
1893 --   Mr. Judge was OH then till his death  --  as I recall,
she met Judge mid 1894 ?    Check this please

=======================================


>6. KT refers directly to that E.S. founded by HPB and WQJ in
1875
>in NY when she explains: "The real Headquarters of the Society
>has always been in New York, where the Society was founded...
>(ibed., p. 30)."

=================================================

At the convention of the American Section in Boston , Aapril end,
1895 this statement was made pubic by Ayres, Crosbie, etc.. in a
pamphlet issued then that detailed the history of the T S from
1875.

It was there stated that the HQ of the T S had never left N Y  --
subsequently when the Ameruican Section TS transformd itself into
the Theosophical Society in America, Olcott asked officially for
the original Minutes, and files, and this was refused.  Or am I
wrong ?  It was Olcott's contention that the HQ of the TS was
wherever he was -- and that had been accepted as a workable fact,
although he did not return to New York to resume his function at
the original HQ -- which he visited when he passed through from
time to time. America was left to sink or swim and it is due to
WQJ that it became the outstanding success that it was by 1885/6.

==============================================


>Could it be other way? One should understand that the
>evolutionary development comes from within.
>Use the theosophical key of analogy and you have it!
>The founding of the T.S. emanated from the E.S., not otherwise.
>A serious and stern reexamination of our primary sources is
>needful to understand the thee true story of the T.S.,
>her aim and her tasks.
>HPB named the E.S. always as the "real heart of the T.S."

=================================================

You are quite right, and without as backup the Original Lodge of
Adepts (mentioned in ISIS II 98-103) we would not even have the
remnants of HPB's ES and TS at present anywhere.  Nor would we
have the Theosophical Movement with all its ups and downs,

It is my fervent contention that the only basis for any real
unity among all of us who are her, his and Their students, is
through the philosophy of Theosophy, and not through any kind of
"organizaton."

The societies, if they channel Theosophy feely, have no reason
for not cooperating.  If however they feel (as organizations)
that they have something to preserve or to hide, or to retain
some grip over their members, then they will fail in time, as
only the freedon of the students can equal the freedom of Truth
and Wisdom, or real THEOSOPHY.

                Frank:  Many thanks for these details
Dal