Theos-Talk Archives (November 1998 Message tt00013)

> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
> Sent:	Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998

Nov. 3rd 1998

Dallas writes:

Dear MKR:

To offer further clarification.  Please I only make statements
that are based on definite historical documents or first person
witness.  When I don't know I say so.  When I guess or have an
opinion - and I often have many - I also say so, so there is no
mistake.  Also when I find I am wrong I say so right away.

Dal.

Now: --


Concerning the matter of Mr. Judge, and the part that he played
in the T S and its development.

The statements I made are based on Histories and historical
documents.

If Mr. Paul Johnson has something else than opinions (his own or
those of others) to offer, could they be advanced for all to
consider ?  As I read his statements they appear to me inaccurate
and I subjoin comments.

-----------------------------------


Students who desire to investigate these documents will find them
detailed in two books

THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ;  1875 - 1925,  and its sequel

THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT :  1875 - 1950

The references that are quoted there have all been verified
several times.



1878 - 1896

After HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept
the T S in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when
no one was present - as is attested to by others.  Mr.
Neresheimer, is one of those.  Between 1879 and 1886 the work of
the T S apparently faced a recession of interest in the USA -
however it was Judge that kept the thread of continuity alive at
the HQ in New York.


1891 - 1892

Judge produced no "Mahatma letters" that turned Besant against
Olcott.  It was Besant who brought certain opinions of hers to
Judge late in 1891.  (See HISTORIES above. )

Resolutions were passed by the American and the British Sections
T S in 1892 accepting Olcott's resignation (which he wrote
unrequested, alleging health reasons).  Because of Judge's
urging, these Resolutions requested Olcott to rescind his
resignation.  Olcott went on record when he did this, saying that
he had independently received a direct communication from "his
Master" telling him to do so.  This is a matter of Historical
record.


Judge and Vice-Presidency / Presidency  (1891-2)

Judge advised many of his close companions that he was not
interested in leaving New York and America (where his work was).
He was suffering from the incurable Chagres disease, (Back-water
fever) which finally took his life in 1896.  He did not want to
go to Adyar and to assume the Presidency of the T S.

He had been appointed Vice-President T S by Pres. Olcott, and
this was later ratified by the Council in Adyar.  This was during
HPB's life-time.  She stated that this appointment was made at
the "Masters order."  {Documents as above ]


Judge's relations with HPB

It is advisable to consider ALL letters, please.  Then, frame
your own opinion.

1875 -1888

Judge was given a Certificate (14 Dec. 1888) in ES by HPB in 1888
stating he was a "successful chela of 13 years' standing" and was
her "Agent" in America.

More letters giving HPB's opinion of Judge are available in
print.
[ see LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME.  ULT 1931 Centenary Edition,
pp. 276 et seq. ]


Besant's "Co-outer Head E S" termination by Judge

Based on documents.  [ See History ]


1893 - 1894

Besant arrived in Colombo late in 1893, visited Adyar soon after
for the "annual meeting."

Attack on Judge began early in 1894.

"Trial" conducted in mid 1894 in London on flimsy "evidence."
Failed, and "charges" were dismissed.  [ see HISTORY ]
History narrates the sequence of letters and the response for all
to see.

Amity was declared in letters published in LUCIFER, PATH and
THEOSOPHIST.

Attack on Judge was resumed late in 1894.  [ see History ]


Krotona conference:  Statements are made based on my memory (and
notes) of events and words heard.


Dallas

> Sent:	Monday, November 02, 1998 9:00 PM
> Subject: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998

1. Corrections re Judge
2. Re: Corrections re Judge
7. Re: Corrections re Judge

> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:16:16 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Corrections re Judge
> From: "K Paul Johnson" <pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu>

I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post
about WQJ.  First is his statement that the original issue was
the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others
tried to oust him.  No, the *original* issue was the position of
Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long
after HPB's death.  They actually succeeded in getting him to
resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a
female Theosophist.  But then Olcott changed his mind and refused
to depart, alleging Masters' orders.  Only after Besant changed
sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met
many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma
letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the
fan for Judge.

Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges
of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year.  This
obscures the role of the ES in the dispute.  Judge and Besant
were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from
her position-- and she reciprocated.  It was the split in the ES
that led to the split in the TS.  Yes, this is unfortunate
history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and
villains.

It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India,
Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great
growth.  Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so
and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he
start to devote himself to building it up.  As for his having no
personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this
claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma
letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the
latter's resignation.  If the letters were genuine, no personal
ambition was involved.  Otherwise... this would clear the way for
his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious.

Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were
close and always cordial.  Recent publications of letters in
Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown
otherwise.

BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall
John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls.  His theme
was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and
various branches dialects.  Perhaps he was interpreted as having
*meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he
presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying
this and would like a quote.

Cheers,

Paul

> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:52:59 -0600
> Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge
> From: "M K Ramadoss" <ramadoss@eden.com>

Dear Paul:

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Many of us do not have the
in depth
knowledge of the various happenings in the TS in the past and
feedback from
you is eye opening.

Would you like to share any further info you have seen or read in
relation
to the allegation regarding Olcotts "indiscretions". My regard
for him is
not going to change no matter what further info comes out because
he did
spend much of his prime of life for expanding Theosophy.

As regards what was actually said and was not said at the Krotona
conference, if only the players who are still alive care to be
active in
Internet discussion groups, any misstatement can be put to rest
instantly.
But that is not happening based on what we see and I do not see
any changes
in the near future unless some revolution takes place in TSA.

It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not
care to
communicate as they did when she was alive. If she were to be
alive today
and the Masters were communicating, we would have had an instant
rebuttal/correction to set facts right.

mkr