Theos-Talk Archives (January 1999 Message tt00007)

Part four:

David Walker wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> This is the fourth piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
> his dialogues with Krishnamurti.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>                             March 30, 1980
>                           Ojai - California
>               There may be one day of error in this date
>
> Ruben:        Last year we couldn't talk too much. Mary
>               (Zimbalist) takes good care of you. She didn't let
>               me see you. Simple as that (laughing).
>
> Krishnamurti: I asked her to live longer than I will, so she helps
>               me to take care of "the horse". They claim that I
>               take care of my body as a cavalry officer takes care
>               of his horse. Maria is a good officer.
>
> Ruben:        I guess that without her it would be difficult to be
>               even one minute by yourself, with so many people
>               wanting to talk to you. People love you.
>
> Krishnamurti: No, very few want to discuss anything serious. They
>               fall in love with me and want to be close, that's
>               all. It's not that they love.
>
> Ruben:        I'm glad to know Dr. David Bohm will talk with you
>               and that the talks will be recorded. Please tell him
>               I'd like to see him again.
>
> Krishnamurti: Yes, we will record our talks with Dr. Bohm. I didn't
>               know what we would do in the two days in California
>               this time, but seems it will happen.
>
> Ruben:        I hope you talk about the problem of time. It was
>               when I had my first contact with That, at the
>               Frankfurt Airport in 1978, that I understood what is
>               irrelevant time. It was the last thing I understood,
>               the difference between relevant and irrelevant time.
>               I think if somebody understands that difference right
>               away That has to barge in.
>
> Krishnamurti: Quite, Dr. Gonzalez.
>
> Ruben:        It's a pity that that "contact" is not a voluntary
>               thing, because I would not like to live in any other
>               way anymore. It's like healing or group-mind. It
>               happens without one knowing how or why: It's perhaps
>               semi-deliberate...
>
> Krishnamurti: Don't get trapped in it when it happens.
>
> Ruben:        No, but it's fascinating.
>
> Krishnamurti: It would be good to have you in our dialogue with Dr.
>               Bohm, somebody who knows about the brain and
>               intellectual psychology.
>
> Ruben:        Excuse me, but I'm not ready to participate in that
>               dialogue. I'm going through a family crisis, my sons
>               are in Argentina, and it's better not to talk about
>               that. You might remember that last year, after having
>               a walk with them, you told me: "Don't ask them what
>               happened". That was in April 1979. Their mother left
>               our house abruptly in August 79. Is all this
>               irrelevant time?
>
> Krishnamurti: Yes, but you said you have tried the Ocean water.
>               Don't avoid exposure Dr. Gonzalez. You already have
>               something to say. I hope you'll participate and
>               contribute.
>
> Ruben:        I'm very sorry I can't do it right now. It's not that
>               I don't want it or that I'm afraid. I simply can't.
>               I think I'm going through a small night of the soul,
>               as they used to say.
>
> Krishnamurti: I hope you can. Speak and expect no-thing. Don't
>               expect to preserve your respectable merits, untie the
>               ocean. The Ocean will flood Dr. Gonzalez. There will
>               be nothing left of him.
>
> (PAUSE)
>
> Ruben:        I'm thinking of working only four hours a day and
>               living in the desert or by the sea, far from big
>               cities. I made contacts in San Luis Obispo, Santa
>               Barbara (with Dr. Ben whom you know so well),
>               Ventura, Hawaii, etc. I want to live simply and with
>               austerity. In November 1979 I refused an offer by Dr.
>               Karl Pribram at Stanford University in California, to
>               work with him in brain research.
>
> Krishnamurti: You love and you do what you will. But austerity may
>               not be simple.
>
> Ruben:        I got rid of everything I had.
>
> Krishnamurti: Be careful that austerity be simple.
>
> Ruben:        What do you mean?
>
> Krishnamurti: You may live in a mansion and spend the night in a
>               grand hotel, as long as your future is not in your
>               memory. He who dies being rich has lived in vain.
>
> Ruben:        I agree. The doubts I have refer to the security of
>               my two sons. I only don't want to have more children.
>               I'm a pediatric surgeon and a pediatric neurologist--
>               psychiatrist, but I don't know what to tell my
>               children. The world is not fit for children.
>
> Krishnamurti: Be responsible with the commitments you have taken
>               upon yourself, but don't worry.
>
> Ruben:        I think my first commitment is to share the treasure
>               of That when one truly lives in it. I'm spending
>               everything I can spare traveling around the world and
>               talking from That. That has come several times.
>
> Krishnamurti: Yes, you look different. Since you come from Latin
>               America, why not concentrate on Latin America?
>               Tickets and hotels are more and more expensive every
>               day and you know how difficult it is to get a visa
>               sometimes.
>
>               Nobody will pay your expenses from Latin American.
>               Those who could pay will not listen and those who
>               listen will not pay. Besides that, you need to take
>               care of your health, you need exercise, Dr. Gonzalez.
>               It's a problem to be in a hospital, all plans
>               altered. That's what happened to me in 1977 when they
>               operated upon my prostate. It was a chance to die and
>               never come back, but there is a lot to do yet. You
>               think it's generous to forget one's health, right?
>
> Ruben:        (laughing) I think it's the problem of almost every
>               physician, the idea that you have to take care of
>               people's health and forget oneself. I was lucky to be
>               born in a vegetarian home, that I never drank
>               (alcohol) or used drugs or tobacco.
>
> Krishnamurti: Beware of your generosity, Dr. Gonzalez, the end of
>               the body shouldn't be precipitated by suicide nor the
>               generosity of forgetting one's own body.
>
>               What do you do when you talk with people in Latin
>               America? Have you ever tried to ask a question in a
>               group for nobody to answer? See what happens.
>
> Ruben:        I speak in Universities with professors and students.
>               When riots and strikes start (which happens quite
>               often due to the situation of oppression and plunder
>               of which Latin America is victim) then I rent a hotel
>               lecture-room, place an ad in a local paper (all quite
>               expensive) and I invite the whole town, as I have
>               done repeatedly in Caracas, Santiago, Buenos Aires,
>               Rosario, several towns in Mexico and Lima.
>
>               In Costa Rica there were no problems at the
>               University (San Jose). Perhaps that's because Costa
>               Rica has no Army.
>
>               I speak of time and its relationship to
>               consciousness, to perception. I speak of "Unitary
>               Perception". Local gurus don't like me to talk
>               because that's the end of their spiritual business.
>               I also understand that when you told me "you talk"
>               it's implicit I'm the only one responsible for what
>               I say. I do not represent you nor interpret your
>               teaching.
>
> Krishnamurti: Quite. Don't forget that in silence flowers an
>               intuitive understanding. Do you talk of living
>               orderly and peacefully and honestly? That's not so
>               difficult and that's the beginning. It's important to
>               emphasize a radical change in daily life. Partial
>               reforms (political, economic, ideologic) are not
>               enough.
>
> Ruben:        But they are urgently needed in Latin America,
>               otherwise a lot of blood will be spilled.
>
> Krishnamurti: yes, but without a radical psychological
>               transformation a partial reform will only
>               procrastinate the blood spill.
>
> (PAUSE)
>
> Ruben:        If wars don't stop today, there will be war
>               tomorrow.
>
> (PAUSE)
>
> Krishnamurti: Have you been flattered or invalidated?
>
> Ruben:        More flattered than invalidated. Both may be the
>               same.
>
> Krishnamurti: They are both rubbish, don't you see? They have
>               done it with me, all my life. To adore or to mock
>               is easier than listening. You know.
>
> Ruben:        I see it clearly. But change seems to be difficult.
>
> Krishnamurti: Do you know that you can help those students to
>               change?
>
> Ruben:        I hope so... but... that contradicts...
>
> Krishnamurti: Give them all your compassion and all your
>               intelligence and even the last minute of your time
>               and energy, but learn to rest in silence. You work
>               too much. Listen well to each one of them. In
>               intelligence and compassion you are a little sun.
>               You'll give light and warmth... and some will praise
>               you, or will mock you from the shadows. Some others
>               will sit in the sun. (LONG PAUSE)
>
> Ruben:        Do you think I should  speak without using my name
>               (anonymously)?
>
> Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez you have four names, don't confuse me
>               even more with your anonymity. Do not avoid exposure.
>               Don't be afraid of loosing anything. There's nothing
>               to loose. You told me you're responsible for what
>               you say, anonymous or not!
>
> Ruben:        What do I do with healing?
>
> Krishnamurti: Healing the body is of secondary importance. Do what
>               you will. But don't do it because someone wants it.
>
> Ruben:        What do you do with the aura?
>
> Krishnamurti: Nothing. We have discussed this matter the first time
>               we met. If you get trapped in something marvelous
>               you'll not allow for the next marvelous thing to
>               happen. Leave the aura alone. Leave kundalini alone.
>               "That" cleanses everything. You don't need to worry.
>
> Ruben:        Sometimes you see something unbearable in someone you
>               love. What do you do?
>
> Krishnamurti: Do you have predilections? Or will you look for some
>               reason for it? It seems unbearable to love someone
>               who will not get interested in That. There is a
>               brother I would like to get interested... he
>               resists... but that's that.
>
> Ruben:        The saddest thing for me is to see what human beings
>               could be but are not. I would even stop watching the
>               news, but it's hard.
>
> (LONG PAUSE)
>
> Krishnamurti: I watch the news sometimes, or else someone else
>               summarizes them for me. The spiritual state of
>               mankind is deplorable. Don't you see how urgently
>               necessary your own transformation is, Dr. Gonzalez?
>               Every child should travel around the world. Then they
>               could cry for all mankind and they would stop
>               thinking as Argentineans, Hindis, Russians, American,
>               Japanese, etc.
>
> Ruben:        Nothing seems to be enough to understand something so
>               simple.
>
> Krishnamurti: Your own total psychological transformation is
>               enough. It's enough to get rid of mankind's
>               consciousness. It's necessary to do so and that is
>               the pure silence and the pure peace of the brain.
>               But that can't be left for tomorrow, if one is
>               serious.
>
> Ruben:        Silence without name.
>
> Krishnamurti: It's like a house which doesn't have a place for
>               silence... it will be a house with a lot of activity,
>               plenty of noise, but there That will not enter. There
>               has to be a room in each house where the only thing
>               you can do there is to be silent and nothing else.
>               That room will be the flame of the house.
>
> Ruben:        Then each home would be like a temple...
>
> Krishnamurti: Each home would be a home without sorrow, that is a
>               good home.
>
> (LONG PAUSE)
>
> Krishnamurti: Well Dr. Gonzalez, it's time to go now. I'm sorry.
>
> Ruben:        Krishnaji, before we go... I hope you give me the
>               names of those you think have understood you best,
>               even when not absolutely well. I'd like to talk with
>               all of them.
>
> Krishnamurti: They are few, so find them and meet them. Untie
>               the ocean together.
>
> Ruben:        Thank you for all, my friend.