Theos-Talk Archives (March 1999 Message tt00143)

Dear Dallas,

you wrote:

>I would like to have the reference you recall also.  I cannot think of it
either.
 However:  Karma touches everything.  It is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE.
Under its reign Universes come and go.  The imperishable MONADS that we are
at core are also unalienable aspects (parts) of the ABSOLUTE.  Are we not
really speaking of "fields of force" on planes quite different from our
merely physical.  What is the MONAD ?<

Yes, I know it sounds a strange thing to say that Nirvana cannot be reached
by Karma, but it does make some sense, at least to me!   Putting it simply -
surely attainment of Nirvana essentialy involves 'merging' the individuality
into Atma.  Now Atma is a radiation of the Absolute (Parabrahm) and is
neither your spirit or mine, but the one Universal Spirit, as HPB says in
the Key to Theosophy.  The Absolute can have nought to do with finite and
conditioned existence, and is beyond the duality of 'cause and effect'.*
Therefore that which is conditioned and finite cannot become the
unconditioned and infinite.   Nor can that which transcends the daulity of
cause and effect be known as a result of that duality (ie 'good' or 'bad'
Karma.)

(*This is why, as I understand it, the Prateyaka Buddhas are regarded as
selfish.  Because once merged into Nirvana they can have no more effect on
the conditioned wolrd of cause and effect, until the next 'round',
manvantara.)

This is where some of what Krishnamurti says speaks to me, when he talks
about the conditioned can not know the 'unconditioned'.  There are
similarities in Zen Buddhism.

I cannot find the Subba Row reference, but HPB says something which I
believe does have a bearing on this question.  I qoute it below:

"Atma, the "Higher Self," is neither your Spirit nor mine, but like sunlight
shines on all. It is the universally diffused "divine principle," and is
inseparable from its one and absolute Meta-Spirit, as the sunbeam is
inseparable from sunlight.

"Buddhi (the spiritual soul) is only its vehicle. Neither each separately,
nor the two collectively, are of any more use to the body of man, than
sunlight and its beams are for a mass of granite buried in the earth, unless
the divine Duad is assimilated by, and reflected in, some consciousness.
Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is the
highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and the
other is unconscious on this plane."

Key to Theosophy: Section 8

Best wishes

Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of W. Dallas
TenBroeck
Sent: 13 March 1999 13:54
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins


Mar 13 1999

Dear Peter:

I would like to have the reference you recall also.  I cannot think of it
either.

However:  Karma touches everything.  It is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE.  Under
its reign Universes come and go.  The imperishable MONADS that we are at
core are also unalienable aspects (parts) of the ABSOLUTE.  Are we not
really speaking of "fields of force" on planes quite different from our
merely physical.  What is the MONAD ?

I just posted to BN a small essay on the first moments of the resumption of
evolution and compared it (at Reed's request) with the 3 "Qualities" or
"Gunas" as described in the BHAGAVAD GITA.

Does this in any way deal with your observation ?  Perhaps not directly.

Dal

================================



              Dallas TenBroeck
              dalval@nwc,net




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Peter Merriott
Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:07 PM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: RE: Theos-World Remission of Sins


Hi Dallas,

You wrote:
>There is no "remission of sins."  And logically everyone is
responsible for their choices.  >

I imagine you were challenging the Christian Church view here.  Namely, that
we can live an immoral life year after year and then have our sins absolved
by God's forgiveness at the last minute, just before death.

How very convenient!

I can't find the reference at the moment, but I am sure that both HPB and
Subba Row both state that Nirvana cannot be reached through Karma - because
it is beyond the realm of cause and effect.  Have you come across this?

Best wishes

Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler
Sent: 12 March 1999 13:12
To: Theos World
Subject: Theos-World Remission of Sins


>[Dallas:]Alterations, elisions, and perversions of meaning are
now being show up in many areas.  >

While I agree with you pretty much, we do have to realize that
"perversions" is a subjective call. I personally think that the
attempts to Christianize Theosophy is a perversion, but this
is just my own opinion because other people like it.



We have discussed this before, and again we can only
agree to disagree here. There is absolutely no way I am
prepared to believe your first statement because if true then
liberation (mukti) would be impossible.  I can only accept
Theosophy if liberation (i.e., the elimination or consumption
of all past karma through spiritual insight) was not a
possibility. If "sins" can not go into "remission" when seen
as dualistic maya, then nothing else can either. Buddha's
fourth law, that there is a way out of samsara, implied that
our countless "sins" incurred throughout countless lifetimes
can be forgiven and can be dispelled in a single heartbeat.

Jerry S.


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