Theos-Talk Archives (April 1999 Message tt00007)

Jerry:

> I am becoming very tired of endless arguements over karma.

No one forces you to continue the discussion.

> Karma is, as I have tried to point out, an extremely esoteric
> and difficult topic. Theosophists such as yourself tend to see
> it simplistically.

Well you can't expect too much from us 'simple folk', I'm afraid.  What I
was hoping to do was show that the  Law of Karma is an Impersonal Law and
not "personal" as you suggested, and that like the law of gravity it doesn't
depend on personal beliefs for it to exist and operate.  I kept my example
simple and relevant to what you had said.

> Well, OK, thats fine if it helps you to do so.
> But it is not a simple thing to me, and this is one of the problems
> that I have with Judge, who wrote about karma like it was
> just cause and effect, such a plain strightforward notion, etc.

Perhaps Judge (obviously another one of us simple folk) had good reason to
speak about it in terms of cause and effect.  For no doubt you have a
problem with HPB as well - she states:

"... we consider it as the Ultimate Law of the Universe, the source, origin
and fount of all other laws which exist throughout Nature. Karma is the
unerring law which adjusts effect to cause, on the physical, mental and
spiritual planes of being. As no cause remains without its due effect from
greatest to least, from a cosmic disturbance down to the movement of your
hand, and as like produces like, Karma is that unseen and unknown law which
adjusts wisely, intelligently and equitably each effect to its cause,
tracing the latter back to its producer. Though itself unknowable, its
action is perceivable."  (Key to Theosophy: Section 11)


> Collective karma is also a complex subject. In one sense
> you are quite correct to assoicate it with that of nations
> and groups.

That's good to know because it is also what HPB says:

"We must not lose sight of the fact that every atom is subject to the
general law governing the whole body to which it belongs, and here we come
upon the wider track of the Karmic law. Do you not perceive that the
aggregate of individual Karma becomes that of the nation to which those
individuals belong, and further, that the sum total of National Karma is
that of the World?"
(Key to Theosophy:Section11)

> Throwing words around like Reincarnating Ego is not much
> help unless you fully understand what the name refers to.

Jerry, this is just such a silly thing to say.  If we can use the word
"Karma" even though it is such an esoteric and complex subject then we can
use the term "reincarnating Ego."  If we can't use these words in a
Theosophy group where can we use them?!  Especially as a central point about
Individual Karma is that it is this 'Reincarnating Ego' that is made to
suffer the Karma of all its past lives.

We don't need to throw words around, nor do we need to "fully understand"
them to grasp the meaning of what HPB writes below:

"So the new being of the re-birth, being the same individuality as before
(but not the same personality), with but a changed form, or new aggregation
of Skandhas, justly reaps the consequences of his actions and thoughts in
the previous existence." (Key to Theosophy: Section 5)

"This is the real Individuality, or the divine man. It is this Ego which --
having originally incarnated in the senseless human form animated by, but
unconscious (since it had no consciousness) of, the presence in itself of
the dual monad -- made of that human-like form a real man. It is that Ego,
that "Causal Body," which overshadows every personality Karma forces it to
incarnate into; and this Ego which is held responsible for all the sins
committed through, and in, every new body or personality -- the evanescent
masks which hide the true Individual through the long series of rebirths."
(Key to Theosophy: Section 8)

> Our Reincarnating Ego is itself a crystallized karma, just
> as our body is, and our mind is. The Ego is not just cause,
> Peter, but it is the effect of something else. There is no
> cause that is not itself an effect, and so on. And all these
> things are maya.

No doubt everything during a Manvantara up to the highest Dhyanis, is the
'effect' of something else (eg a radiation or an emanation, a ray, etc etc).
And yes, compared to the Absolute (Parabrahm) everything is only relatively
real.  How does this detract from the idea that it is the Individuality and
not the personality that reincarnates and reaps the Karma of previous
births?

In what way is Manas a crystallised karma?

Peter


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