Theos-Talk Archives (November 2000 Message tt00073)

Lucas and Sham have made some interesting observations that pose equally 
interesting questions.

Thinking about the meaning of numbers and their relationship to existence 
growing out of nonexistence -- with the idea of explaining such thoughts in 
words certainly is quite a difficult subject and poses quite a difficult 
problem. 

Perhaps the following ruminations can help clarify it a bit.

1. "Existence" relates to the fullness of being, to the measurable dimensions 
of manifest space and its forms, as well as to the phenomenal relationships 
between its parts. It may be described objectively in words.

2. "Nonexistence" relates to the absolute absence, "voidness" or "emptiness" 
of these attributes prior to manifestation. Therefore, while it may have 
essential aspects or potentialities, it has no attributes, is ineffable, and 
cannot be described in words (except as negatives, such as, "not this, not 
that").

Yet, nonexistence when considered scientifically as a "singularity" that is 
the source of all existence, is of the same nature of what in theosophy is 
called the "Absolute" or "Beness" (Parabrahm), and contains all the potential 
aspects that underlie the primal "Being" (Brahma) as well as all subsequent 
beings that evolve and involve out of or through them.

According to theosophy, in order for manifest energy to exist, this Absolute 
non existence must contain "infinite potential energy" in the form of 
"abstract motion." All this would be confined within the initial 
singularity, or "Zero (Laya) Point," which may be considered as nonexistent, 
non-phenomenal, or numberless from the point of view of existence. Such 
infinite energetic motion, therefore, is the "noumena" of all subsequent 
phenomena, and empowers the Initial "One Life" as well as each of the 
succeeding "lives" of the entire "Manifest" universe, while determining the 
laws of cycles and periodicity (the basis of Karma) that governs the 
"evolution" and "involution" of its polar opposites -- "Matter" (the basis of 
Form), and "Spirit" (the basis of "Consciousness"). 

We won't discuss here the various stages of growth of these "lives" starting 
from the initial stages... But, we will consider how no-number leads to 
number, how abstract nonlinear motion leads to concrete linear motion, and 
how "no time," or *infinite* duration, leads to *finite* linear time. 

Since the nonexistent, unmanifest or unborn "Absolute" must contain abstract 
motion and "infinite" potential energy in order to empower the existent 
phenomenal motion and energy of the manifest universe... If we can imagine 
it, we could possibly understand that the only way such initial nonlinear 
motional energy can serve the above purposes of phenomenal evolution and 
involution -- while still remaining "nonexistent" or empty of attributes -- 
is if such "abstract motion" could be encased in the primal, unmanifest 
zero-point in the form of closed circles of energetic spin ("spinergy") 
surrounding and within an imaginary spherical "Space" having zero diameter 
and zero circumference. (This is incredibly difficult to picture in the mind, 
although it could be imagined by a certain method of abstract subtractive 
thinking, somewhat like peeling an onion.) Also, because of the seven fold 
motional aspects of any circle or cycle (See NOTE 2 below), as well as the 
infinite frequencies of such spins and their inherent harmonics, this 
spinergy would necessary have 7 inherent aspects representing 7 potential 
layers or phases, analogous to the 7 fold frequency scales, octaves, or 
spectrums we experience in both music and light on the phenomenal planes. 
(See Cosmic Evolution, Stanza I, SD I-27)

It should be noted, however, that although such initial "spinergy" is 
entirely dimensionless and without attributes, and is totally "isolated" from 
metric space and time (Refer to Patanjali's description of "enlightenment") 
-- it is also the eternal "Causeless Cause" or "Rootless Root" of the Cosmos. 
Therefore, it is nonexistent when considered only from a physical point of 
view. However, it is also the fundamental basis of universal or "God" 
consciousness. 

In such a view, since both zero (dimension) and infinite (energy) are 
entirely beyond all enumeration, the numbers zero and infinity are totally 
descriptive of such "nonexistence." However, it should be noted that, since 
between zero and infinity all numbers must exist phenomenally or potentially, 
both zero and infinity, as well as "nonexistence" itself are still of a 
dynamic nature -- and do, in fact, "exist" in eternity froess cause, or 
Absolute rootless root, does not mean it is static or dead. In essence, this 
essential and infinite spinergy nature of the Absolute, at it extreme end (or 
beginning) must be the eternal root of all Life throughout a near infinite 
number of potential universes. Also, by the nature of holographic vibratory 
(cyclic) interference patterns of information that can impose themselves on 
any motional or energetic lines of force, whether manifest or unmanifest, 
this spinergy nature of the Absolute "nonexistence" can account for the 
retention of experiential memory and intelligence by our Universe when it is 
absorbed in the Absolute during its condition of Pralaya, or rest, during any 
cycle of evolution. 

It is logical to assume, then, that when such a nonexistent point of infinite 
energetic spin (at infinite frequency) expands from within outward to form 
the first manifestation of the initial universal field, it generates an 
outward flow of energy into dimensional space that ultimately forms a 
spherical field whose lines of force extend from the center outward through 
one pole, continuing around the circumference, and then returning inward, 
back to the center through the opposite pole -- completing its entire, 
endless path by looping around again in the opposite direction in three 
cycles that repeat endlessly -- much like the magnetic energy field 
surrounding the Earth that flows endlessly from the center of the earth, out 
through the North Pole, and then around and back to the center through the 
South Pole. 

If we cross sectionally cut through our imaginary image of this initial 
spherical field (See NOTE 1 below), we see that the initial shape of any one 
continuous line of force originating from the center and flowing around the 
outer surface must cross through its center, and follows the path of a figure 
8 inscribed inside a circle. Thus, this initial field (Brahma) is actually 
triune in nature -- having two fields or dimensions (Vishnu, Shiva) within 
the interior of the outer field or dimension. These 3 primal spatial 
dimensions can also be considered as equivalent to the all containing nature 
of the primal source (Mulaprakriti), within which is contained the field of 
the root of manifest consciousness (Perusha) and the field of the root of 
manifest Matter (Prakriti). These two inner fields then evolve further, as 
both frequency and energy decrease on each descending plane, to form 
additional fields within fields within fields, like bubbles within bubbles 
within bubbles. This involution proceeds in succeeding numbers of fields from 
3 to 7 to 15, until the initial stage of universal manifestation is 
complete... After which the Universe continues to involve, as above, so 
below, and subsequently evolve in accordance with karmic law.

Since these fields are now physically 3-dimensional in nature, have expanded 
or evolved linearly in Time, and can be measured -- the first whole numbers 
come into play. It follows, at this initial stage, that cyclic law has been 
fully expressed, the three aspects of every cycle, positive, negative and 
neutral are established... And, as the inner spheres, continue to divide ("As 
Above, So Below") in an infinite progression down to the smallest particle, 
all numbers come into play, cyclic law is activated and governs all 
subsequent action or Karma, and the 1, 3, 7, 10, 12, 14, etc., aspects of all 
fields begin to manifest themselves on every level. 

NOTE 1: For a clearer picture of how these "coadunate but not consubstantial" 
fields interrelate and evolve from their initial center points (which are 
everywhere), check out the Chakrafield (cross sectional) Diagram at: <A 
HREF="http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.ht

ml">How It All Began</A>
http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html

Understand that this process of field involution is identical on both the 
Macrocosmic and microcosmic planes, and is the basis of the Hermetic 
statement, "As above, so below." Also consider that the 2-dimensional 
diagrams are entirely symbolic... Since, the actual "zero point" centers of 
origin and intersection of all fields and their sub fields exist in an inner 
folded, multidimensional space (that is beyond all imagining by finite minds) 
where all the non-dimensional zero points are in the same relative location. 
This accounts for the non-locality of consciousness that may be the basis of 
all "psychical (mental) powers latent in Man," and confirms the paradoxical 
philosophical statement, "the absolute is relative, and the relative is 
absolute."

NOTE 2: To follow the seven changes of state of any cycle, begin sine wave 
from zero (neutral) charge (0), then upwardly increase positive charge (1) to 
maximum positive peak charge level (2), then downwardly decrease positive 
charge (3) to neutral charge level (4), then downwardly increase negative 
charge (5) to maximum negative valley charge level (6), then upwardly 
decrease negative charge (7) to return to zero (neutral) charge (0). This 
seven fold nature of the electrical sine wave is analogous to the "Harmony of 
the Spheres," the octave nature of musical tones, the primary colors of 
light, and the 7 fold nature -- whether latent or expressed -- of the 
universe and all the evolved beings within it. 

I hope all these ideas serve as some useful food for thought in our attempts 
to understand the true nature of reality.

LHM

In a message dated 11/08/00 7:33:07 PM, brigid.lucas@lycos.com writes: 

>Thank You Shampan-e-Shindh (by the way what does your name mean - 
>just curious). I do appreciate your message.
>
>This is a subject that has occupied my mind for some time. The 
>question seems to me: "From where did existence come? I know I exist, 
>that everyhting else that exists exists, but how did It All come about?" 
>
>Since I've read certain books, I have conceptualized existence and 
>non-existence being (or not being) at the same time (the best I could 
>at least). This is some of what I feel I can gather from such books 
>as "The Upanisads", but I could never be certain that this is what 
>was being said. It is nice to know that the same concept is shared.
>I wonder if the One has knowledge of how It started existing out of 
>non-existence? Quite a difficult subject to say the least!
>
>Thanks again,
>Lucas of Brigid
>
>--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Shampan-e-Shindh <shampan@z...> wrote:
>> Dear Mr Carpenter and List,
>> 
>> Numbers counting and their various progressions are all numeric expression 
>> of occurrence / existence.
>> 
>> To go to roots, basics, fundamentals.. let's start from where it all began.
>> 
>> What are numbers? .. The comparison of everything in quantity (that is 
>> what we invented numberings for, it is our invention, only one point of 
>> view WE invented)
>> 
>> One stick exists, another stick exists.. together.. they are 2 sticks. 
There is
>> no such thing as "no sticks".. but we can imagine .. where "there are no
>> sticks"; only then .. no sticks is a reality.. Thus 0 sticks. In that 
context,
>> of course 0 is an existence.
>> 
>> Those are things which are "countable" or comparable to one another in
>> quantity. There are things which are not countable. That is where numbers 
>> fail to be the expressions of these existences. Numbers can only signify 
>> things which are structured in solid form due to their atomic structures.. 
>> You cannot count water.. If you example "a drop of water". I can bring 
>> another drop and mix with it, and they both become one drop.
>> 
>> Yes .. there is where all numbers actually merge with more facts than
>> "number-science" as significantly as materialistic existence (touchables) 
>> with non-materialistic existence's (untouhcables).. Somewhat the same 
>> as.. the smallest particles of an object are not quite touchable 
materials.. 
>> yet when they are in the usual circumstance they might create a physique. 
>> You see .. all these, we are still considering, ... ALL THESE in regards 
to 
>> things we can sense.. either by physical touch, or hear or vision .. or 
some 
>> other ways. We might not be able to notice many occurrences .. that is 
>> where we have found to numeric expression opening up the gates to .. 
>> those un-noticed existances, but we know they exist.. those 2 numeric 
>> expressions are ..0 and infinity.
>>
>> Opens up a whole lot of discussions. You know it is all like a 3 
dimensional
>> jigsaw puzzle. Just by numbers you have one little part of the whole 
puzzle..
>> there are all other concepts that need to click.. And when they do.. you 
>> know you got something.. But how on earth are you going to explain it in 
>> words..?
>> 
>> Sham