Theos-Talk Archives (December 2000 Message tt00010)

December 5, 2000

RACISM: Are there any reliable criteria available for us to
use?

Dear Friend:

UNIVERSALISM vs, SECTARIANISM

If one accepts a "label" then one ceases to be universalist, and
becomes to some extent sectarian. No one ever entirely fits
under a "label." Each has enough individuality to "stick out" in
some ways. To allow one's self to be "labeled" is not a very
good idea, nor is it true insofar as accuracy is concerned.

WHAT IS THEOSOPHY ?
As I understand it, Theosophy tries to show us universal laws and
the history of their action specifically in regard to
CONSCIOUSNESS. By "consciousness" I mean the sense of "I-am-I"
that each being has to some degree.
Theosophy is a review not only of the history of the development
of all beings in a well-arranged Universe -- one where LAWS
appear to operate with persistence and regularity -- but it also
defines those LAWS, starting with the most basic and universal --
then traces their operation down to the individual and most
minute component of its area of work and existence. It does not
have any conflict with the actual laws of nature that all
departments of Science report on.
FACTS vs. HYPOTHESES and THEORIES
It does however have differences of opinion in regard to the
theories and hypotheses that Science advances, as its basis for
such vision is far more ancient and broader than our modern
Science (hardly 300 years old) has been able to develop with
accuracy. We find scientific theories and hypotheses being
altered day by day as new data emerges. Theosophy does not alter
its views or statements. It is a portion of the continuing
record made by the wise men of our world down the ages, and to
which more is being added even as we write. Knowledge and wisdom
are not the 'property' of anyone, but are the common inheritance
of all.


TERMINOLOGY
In Theosophy the word MONAD is used to indicate a center of life
in which the first sense of "I-am-I" is to be found -- to us it
would be classified as "sub-atomic."


PERFECTION of KNOWLEDGE as a "GOAL"
Theosophy claims there is an unbroken continuity of evolution
from that stage, through that stage of life that is called for
the moment "humanity." This proceeds, unbroken, to an ultimate
"goal" which can only (indefinitely) be termed "PERFECTION."
This is said to include a complete knowledge and ability to
access all that can be known about the manifested universe.

Since in Theosophy we are dealing with intangibles and infinites,
it is difficult to pin down any specific attribute (such as the
time and race-limited kind) that would fit a "racist."

MONAD -- an ETERNAL BEING OF LIFE --
BUILDING-BLOCKS of the UNIVERSE

Each MONAD (a part of the WHOLE) is indestructible, eternal in
existence and function, and infinite in the scope of its effects
on other MONADS -- of which the whole UNIVERSE is composed.

I therefore maintain that any limited attribute or appellation
such as "racist" cannot be imposed on the original teachings of
Theosophy, which do not deal with such false and temporary
concepts.

RACISM vs UNIVERSAL PROGRESS and the RIGHT TO LIVE

For example, a certain kind of human character makes "racism"
possible. [ Possibly it is characterized by ignorance, from
which arise: fear and uncertainty.] In any era it (racism) may
title itself with the name of some local person or cult. In time
the "name" disappears, but the IDEA of racism (in some form,
social, religious, racial, etc...) persists. Has this any real
validity? How long can such a concept persist? If one considers
the waves of history and their many records, one finds that such
things arise and then subside and there is little coherence in
them. This trends towards isolation and the formation of a sect,
cult, religion or political party, rather than expand towards an
IDEAL that all could adopt because of its evident excellence.


IDEALISM and REALITY
In contrast idealism is found to always persist and it seems to
have a continuous attraction in the affections of cultured
humans. It does not focus on any particular person or era, but
recognizes excellence in any time/space frame. It tends to
universalize and deal in excellencies. It is broad, generous,
charitable and in a grand way, we could apply the word "virtuous"
to the emotions it commands response from.


But, possibly, I have not understood you.

Dallas

W. Dallas TenBroeck

==============================================

-----Original Message-----
>From: Valters Grivins [mailto:walters@latnet.lv]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:32 AM
To: basic@blavatsky.net
>Subject: [bn-basic] RE: racists and so on


Friends,
I suppose many of those involved in this discussion do not think
other than
secular humanists "humanrightists" enhanced democrats, etc.
Indeed the same notion of "racism" is a product of our days, a
product of
society going to it's destruction. Who can say - who and when
canceled the
Laws of Nature, the Law of Hierarcy at first? If not why we speak
about this
theme in the manner we see here.
HPB is a "racist" exatly in the same range Nature, Dhiani are
"racists". If
there would not be differences among subjects of Universe it
would not
exist, would it? Anti-racists wants cancel colors in world. They
want
everybody under decadent coca-cola uni"culture" with modern
slaves binded
with stupidity.
Equality in understanding of "primordial" theosophy means
equality in
chances to develop itself from certain point the person is, not
that all are
equal in their abilities and qualities. Or there is not a reason
who drives
a car - profesional with licence and skills or first time driver?

sincerely

Valters Grivins,
Latvia

-----Original Message-----
>From: BN-basic digest [mailto:bn-basic@lists.lyris.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:01 AM
To: bn-basic digest recipients
>Subject: bn-basic digest: December 04, 2000


BN-BASIC Digest for Monday, December 04, 2000.

1. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
2. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
3. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
4. 5 articles added to Blavatsky Archives
5. Re: [bn-basic digest: December 01, 2000]
6. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
7. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
8. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
9. Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
10. Re: bn-basic digest: December 03, 2000
11. WisdomWorld: 2 Series of Articles Finished--2 Begun

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>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: Compiler <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
>Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 17:04:45 -0500
>X-Message-Number: 1

There is nothing in the entire history of HPB's life and work,
and in all of
her
writings, that would suggest that she was racist and would in any
way,
shape, or
form condone Nazism. On the contrary, "Universal Brotherhood" is
the
rock-solid
foundation and whole theme of her work and mission, and the
eternal
THEOSOPHICAL
MOVEMENT. Just because Hitler and his cronies may have took ideas
from
Theosophy
and "The Secret Doctrine', and twisted them, for their own racist
ways, in
no way
should HPB or Theosophy be held accountable. It is my opinion and
contention
that
if HPB could have had the chance to advise Hitler in any way, it
would have
been
to try to help him to see the great faults in the ways he was
thinking about
humanity, and to change directions.

Compiler
(John DeSantis)
-------

M8452@aol.com wrote:

> I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of
Nazism" and
was
> rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically
racist. I
read
> Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same.
Is it fair
to
> label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here
refute this
> argument?
>
> ---
> Current topic is at
> http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm
> You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as:
[compiler@wisdomworld.org]
> To unsubscribe, forward this message to
leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net


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>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: Nancy Gail Milligan <n_g_milligan@yahoo.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:57:28 -0800 (PST)
>X-Message-Number: 2


I am so glad to see someone ask this question, as
I would like to see this issue addressed as well. A
friend of mine read SD, but was unable to accept the
teachings because of what she called its racist
language. I was unable to address her problems
because I was only half way through the first volume.
I am now halfway through the second volume, and I have
seen a few items that I found questionable, but feel
that I must finish it before I can take a position on
it. I would love to see people who know more about the
subject explain these problems. ~~~ Gail

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

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-----

>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: "Peter Merriott" <nous@btinternet.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:00:38 -0000
>X-Message-Number: 3


Dear ???,

Why not put forward some views that substantiate those claims so
that people
know exactly what it is you expect them to refute.

Also, you might consider taking some responsibility for
introducing the
topic by showing how you have tried to answer this question for
yourself.
What is the evidence 'for and against' such a claim? What have
you found in
the Secret Doctrine that has helped you explore and try to answer
this
question?

..Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M8452@aol.com [mailto:M8452@aol.com]
> Sent: 03 December 2000 18:15
> To: basic@blavatsky.net
> Subject: [bn-basic] Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>
>
> I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of
> Nazism" and was
> rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically
> racist. I read
> Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same.
> Is it fair to
> label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here
> refute this
> argument?


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-----

>Subject: 5 articles added to Blavatsky Archives
>From: "Blavatsky Archives" <info@blavatskyarchives.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:38:53 -0700
>X-Message-Number: 4


Five more items have just been added to the
BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com
http://blavatsky.cc

(1) The Theosophists: Something
About Madame Blavatsky, the High
Priestess of the Society
by Laura C. Holloway
[Reprinted from The Leader,
October 14, 1888, p. 14.]

(2) Blavatsky's Mesmerism
by Laura C. Holloway
[Reprinted from Current
Literature (New York) March 1889,
pp. 243-244.]

(3) Madame Blavatsky: A Pen Picture
by An American Newspaper Writer
[Laura C. Holloway]
[Reprinted from The Word (New York)
February 1912, pp. 262-269.]

(4) The Mahatmas and Their
Instruments [Part I]
by L. C. L.[Laura C. Holloway]
[Reprinted from The Word (New York),
May 1912, pp. 69-76.]

(5) The Mahatmas and Their
Instruments [Part II]

by L. C. L. [Laura C. Holloway]
[Reprinted from The Word (New York),
July 1912, pp. 200-206.]

These articles will be found in the
"New Items" section.

---------------------------------------
Daniel H. Caldwell
info@blavatskyarchives.com
BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com
http://blavatsky.cc
http://theosophyonthe.net

You can always access our site by
simply typing into the URL address
bar the following 6 characters:

hpb.cc
---------------------------------------



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>Subject: Re: [bn-basic digest: December 01, 2000]
>From: "Christian L" <buzzdcl@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 22:11:12 -0800
>X-Message-Number: 5

Adelasie,

I respectfully disagree with your comment below. If fact, I
believe
Theosophy offers very explicit instructions. Only Theosophy's
aim is not to
develop the "hidden powers latent in man", in and of itself. And
it may
take lifetimes. Several lifetimes. When one goes outside on a
starry night
and can witness the light from a star that started its journey
billion of
years ago, a fifty year lifetime here and a sixty eight year
lifetime there
really doesn't seem that long.


Christian

----Original Message Follows----
>From: "adelasie" <adelasie@thegrid.net>
Reply-To: basic@blavatsky.net
To: basic@blavatsky.net
>Subject: [bn-basic] Re: [bn-basic digest: December 01, 2000]
>Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 21:30:58 -0800

Dear Mike,

It's true, as you say, that Theosophy doesn't offer any explicit
instructions on how to develop the "hidden powers latent in man."
....

Adelasie

On 2 Dec 00, at 10:39, farmageddon@usa.net wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I ask you to recall one of the main original purposes of the
> theosophical movement: to investigate the hidden powers latent
within
> man. Theosophy does not help with this. All the information is
about,
> not how to.
>
>

---
Current topic is at
http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm
You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as:
[buzzdcl@hotmail.com]
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http://explorer.msn.com


-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----

>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: "Nick Weeks" <Nick.Weeks@worldnet.att.net>
>Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:04:24 -0800
>X-Message-Number: 6

>From: <M8452@aol.com>
> I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of
Nazism" and
was
> rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically
racist. I
read
> Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same.
Is it fair
to
> label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here
refute this
> argument?

How did the authors define "racism"? How do you define it?

Best,

Nicholas



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>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: M8452@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:50:27 EST
>X-Message-Number: 7

Sorry folks,
<>
Its supposed to be: <>
Sorry about that

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>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: M8452@aol.com
>Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:44:51 EST
>X-Message-Number: 8

<<Also, you might consider taking some responsibility for
introducing the
topic by showing how you have tried to answer this question for
yourself.>>
Yes I have tried and I'm not sure if the SD is racist. Thats
precisely
why I introduced the topic. Never did I say it was or wasn't
racist. I'm
trying to stay objective here, and thats why I haven't jumped to
any
conclusions. Nor did I say HPB was racist. By the way in both
books the
authors write that theosophists get uneasy and when this subject
comes up.
I
could see that happening in this e-mail room. How about just
answering my
question and not taking such a defensive stance. I wasn't
accusing anyone
(theosophists) or anything (Secret Doctrine) of being racist. I
just want
your side off the story.

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-----

>Subject: Re: The Secret Doctrine and Racism
>From: Compiler <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
>Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 10:55:09 -0500
>X-Message-Number: 9

To add a few more thoughts to consider, hoping for those more
knowledgeable
about
this subject of "racism" to comment on, about Theosophy being
presented via
HPB and
"The Secret Doctrine", and in all of her writings, in my study of
the
teachings I
find that it is said, over and over again, in numerous ways, in
many places,
that we
are ALL re-incarnating and going through all of the "races" over
and over
again
(thinking of "races" in all ways, such as, for example, the
entire race of
humanity,
worldwide; a particular Family race, in one part of the world
during its
cycle of
about 30,000 years, while others are in their cycles in other
parts of the
world;
down to the different colors of skins we enter into, and so on).
With this
being the
process for us eternal pilgrims (spiritual beings, thinking
souls) in
gaining
experience, overall, in general, and these physical races all
having,
according to
the Teaching, their rises and falls and their periods of wisdom,
ignorance
and
degenerating, we have to be each more understanding and
thick-skinned, so to
say, of
these facts so that when HPB and Theosophy explain the simple
TRUTH and
REALITY
about where any particular race or nation or people or culture
stands in the
never-ending process, at any particular time -- whether present,
past, and
future,
based on cycles that have been, are, and are to come, we are not
offended
ourselves
if we happen to be in one, or if others are and/or were. If this
is what is
actually
endlessly going on in the cosmic process everywhere, as well as
on our own
planet,
we would be foolish not to straightout be told about it and be
mistakenly
offended
each time it is spoken of in some way in the teaching, as HPB had
to. I hope
this
helps a little in our thinking and talking about this subject of
"Races" and
"Racism" and Theosophy and HPB. Where I am dead wrong in my above
comments,
I hope
it will be pointed out and explained more wisely.

Compiler
(John DeSantis)
-------

Compiler wrote:

> There is nothing in the entire history of HPB's life and work,
and in all
of her
> writings, that would suggest that she was racist and would in
any way,
shape, or
> form condone Nazism. On the contrary, "Universal Brotherhood"
is the
rock-solid
> foundation and whole theme of her work and mission, and the
eternal
THEOSOPHICAL
> MOVEMENT. Just because Hitler and his cronies may have took
ideas from
Theosophy
> and "The Secret Doctrine', and twisted them, for their own
racist ways, in
no way
> should HPB or Theosophy be held accountable. It is my opinion
and
contention that
> if HPB could have had the chance to advise Hitler in any way,
it would
have been
> to try to help him to see the great faults in the ways he was
thinking
about
> humanity, and to change directions.
>
> Compiler
> (John DeSantis)
> -------
>
> M8452@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of
Nazism"
and was
> > rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically
racist. I
read
> > Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the
same. Is it
fair to
> > label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone
here refute
this
> > argument?
> >
> > ---
> > Current topic is at
> > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm
> > You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as:
[compiler@wisdomworld.org]
> > To unsubscribe, forward this message to
leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net
>
> ---
> Current topic is at
> http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm
> You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as:
[compiler@wisdomworld.org]
> To unsubscribe, forward this message to
leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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>Subject: Re: bn-basic digest: December 03, 2000
>From: Celynmarn@aol.com
>Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:23:52 EST
>X-Message-Number: 10


--part1_71.8dd3a2f.275d8188_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 12/4/00 4:00:28 AM Atlantic Standard Time,
bn-basic@lists.lyris.net writes:


> I was reading Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of
Nazism" and
> was
> rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically
racist. I
read
> Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the same.
Is it fair
> to
> label theosophy and the SD as racist? How would everyone here
refute this
> argument?

I too have read about the racists being influenced by Blavatsky
and others
involved in the Esoteric Wisdom. Remember, we are all different
and will
receive the information differently, and depending upon intent,
will use it
differently. Hitler was Hitler and used it in a Hitlerisk
fashion. Perhaps
this is one of the reasons they kept the Wisdom secret so that
people like
Hitler could not use it to destroy.

The Universal Wisdom is about love and inclusiveness - Truth.
Use it for
the
highest and the best.

Blessings,
Cely



--part1_71.8dd3a2f.275d8188_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
12/4/00
4:00:28 AM Atlantic Standard Time, <BR>bn-basic@lists.lyris.net
writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I was
reading
Nicholas Goodrich Clark's book "Occult Roots of Nazism" and
<BR>was
<BR>rather surprised by the fact that he called it esoterically
racist.
&nbsp;I read
<BR>Joscelyn Godwin's book Arktos Polar myth and he felt the
same. &nbsp;Is
it fair <BR>to
<BR>label theosophy and the SD as racist? &nbsp;How would
everyone here
refute this
<BR>argument?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial"
LANG="0">
<BR>I too have read about the racists being influenced by
Blavatsky and
others <BR>involved in the Esoteric Wisdom. &nbsp;Remember, we
are all
different and will <BR>receive the information differently, and
depending
upon intent, will use it <BR>differently. &nbsp;Hitler was Hitler
and used
it in a Hitlerisk fashion. &nbsp;Perhaps <BR>this is one of the
reasons they
kept the Wisdom secret so that people like <BR>Hitler could not
use it to
destroy.
<BR>
<BR>The Universal Wisdom is about love and inclusiveness - Truth.
&nbsp;Use
it for the <BR>highest and the best.
<BR>
<BR>Blessings,
<BR>Cely
<BR>
<BR></FONT>
---<BR>
Current topic is at <BR>
http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm<BR>
You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as:
[dalval14@earthlink.com]<BR>
To unsubscribe, forward this message to
leave-bn-basic-6640831O@lists.lyris.net
</html>

--part1_71.8dd3a2f.275d8188_boundary--

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>Subject: WisdomWorld: 2 Series of Articles Finished--2 Begun
>From: Compiler <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
>Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:15:01 -0500
>X-Message-Number: 11

21 more articles have been added to Wisdom World
in the past fourteen days, along with a "Search Engine"
for the entire web site (which is found in the "Additional
Categories of Articles" INDEX page: at the bottom of the
list of links for on-line Theosophical books).

These series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine
have now been finished:

Antiquity of Man (8-part series):
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AntiquityOfMan-Series/index
.html

The Races of Man (6-part series):
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheRacesOfMan-Series/index.
html

And these series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine
have taken their place to be scanned, proofread, and posted
in the work area, where seven series and groupings of articles
are always being worked on, with the finished articles posted
as they are done:

Figures of the Transition Age (12-part series):
(These are now being scanned.)

Theosophists Unaware (14-part series):
(These are now being scanned.)

Of the two links provided below, you will find that the 21
articles
added in the past fourteen days were all added to the
"Additional"
page. On this INDEX page are both finished series and groupings
of articles, as well as the seven different categories of
articles
that are being worked on at all times.

All of these articles are now a fairly-wide mix of categories
geared for everyone: investigators into science, religion, and
philosophy; historians; inquirers, newcomers, and more
experienced students at all levels -- including the very
scientifically-oriented ones (and the mix will steadily expand
and grow wider, deeper, and more diverse). Besides being
for all individual searchers for truth, by providing them with
much profound and informative Theosophical information
that will assist them in this, they are also geared to be
"Supplementary" reading and study material for participants
of various Theosophical study and discussion groups, classes
and forums, worldwide, such as, for instance, all three of the
forums so far under way here on Blavatsky Net: bn-basic,
bn-study, and bn-sd.

As a fellow participant here, I hope you find them useful.

Compiler
(John DeSantis)
-------

The "Additional Categories of Articles" page:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html

The "Main Page":
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

-------




---

END OF DIGEST

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