Theos-Talk Archives (December 2000 Message tt00098)

December 30, 2000

Almost the end of this year and a new millennium starts Monday.
BEST WISHES TO YOU and yours.


Dear Gene:

I am going by the description of the qualities inherent in the 7
Principles (which correspond to the 7 Universal Planes) - and I
use H.P.B.'s books KEY TO THEOSOPHY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE as a
basis .

I consider the commentaries made by students who followed her
(and of course myself) as expressions of their understanding of
what she basically said -- and remember the Masters certified
they were her co-authors ( PATH Vol. 8,. P. 1-4).

So you will find me in trying to meet or make descriptions using
those originals of H.P.B.

Of course there are mixtures as some aspects of metaphysics
involve more than one set of Principles or Planes of being,
perception and of action .

So much time is spent on adjusting terminology, so meaning is
rendered clear. Sorry.

Let me add some comments to yours given below.

Dal

================================


-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:26 AM
To: theos-talk@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?

Dear Dallas,

Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to be
food for
thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be
consumed,
digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to be
able to
follow your reasoning.

I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you are
expanding
and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes.
Also you are
associating from planes into the seven principles which are
numbered
differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow
you as I'm
familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles and
how Subba
Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his
numbering
system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking to
the planes
and pondering their logical derivation:
Will causes love and intelligent
activity and these three have four permutations giving seven and
each of the
seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to the
Will or the
Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and Intellect).
I might
point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words
to describe
the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be
clarifying:

--------------------------------------------------------
DTB	Will (as I understand it) is a faculty used by the MONAD to
achieve any result on any plane of matter. For instance you
desire to lift your pencil. The thought is activated by the
desire impulse, the mind decides that it is a legitimate action,
the will is engaged to transmit the thought into action by
activating the brain centers which transmit neural directions to
the appropriate muscles, etc.. All done in a "flash." I think you
will find the sequence correct. "Deciding that an action is
legitimate" is where the moral equation comes in. On can spend a
great deal of time establishing that. Is the pencil to be used
casually, or with the intent to assist or harm -- and so on.
What kind of feelings, and / or thoughts lie behind the use of
that pencil, -- and so on.
--------------------------------------
Yours My comments
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
1.	DTB	ZERO REALLY as we have no concept of ITS REALITY.

2. Absoluteness	DTB	NO THING

3. Absolute	DTB	NOTHING (see S.D. I p. 27 )

4. Buddhic(latent thought) DTB	WHY LATENT? It can be
activated and relied on at need.
MEMORY certainly, but serves MIND (the active agent), as a basis
for comparing earlier recorded results and determining the
probable outcome of any act, word or feeling. (This -- I think
may be called -- a service from the universal Akasa to the
individualized Buddhi, and displayed to the Mind more and more
clearly as it (the Mind) attempts to secure a clear view of
TRUTH -- so that it can choose the best course available.)
If we are seeking for the most appropriate MORAL aspect of
thought this would indeed bring on the conjunction of BUDDHI and
MANAS. This is also called the HIGHER-MIND or Buddhi-Manas. It
is a act of the tripartite SPIRITUAL SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS)
in trying to give the best "advice" to the inquiring LOWER
MIND -- all of us, who seek to do "the best that we can."

5. Manasic(actual thought) DTB	PERHAPS YOU MEAN THE THOUGHTS WE
GENERATE WHEN WE RESPOND OR GENERATE IDEAS BASED ON OUR PRESENT
INVOLVEMENT WITH MATERIAL THINGS ? Most of these have a personal
or selfish basis. But under the pressure of experience at some
time the Lower Manas wakes up to the fact that its choices have
often led it astray into painful experiences -- so it resolves to
look for a better advisor -- a better way to choose actions,
words, feelings.

6. Astral(emotions) DTB	NOT part of my concept, as the word
"astral" as first used in H.P.B.'s and Masters' expositions
related solely to the electro-magnetic world which is interior to
the physical and serves as a basis for its being -- as a location
pattern for atoms, molecules, cells, etc...hence,
electro-magnetic in nature -- some all it the real body, as the
physical rests in and on it. A knowledge of this adds
substantially to one's ability to heal disease, etc... And to
this was its other capacity of recording all the events that
concerned Lower Manas
DTB	EMOTIONS (desires, passions, yearnings, etc. ) H.P.B.
relegates to the plane of KAMA -- DESIRE in Sanskrit. And this is
distinct from the plane of PRANA / JIVA or vitality the general
Life-current in man and Nature.
DTB	Plane of PRANA or vital breath in Man -- the life-currents
JIVA, this is perhaps one of the most difficult to define, as
it relates to the tensile strength of the body and has to do with
the Karma of our incarnation in any one place, time and for
whatever purpose our life is set for) and
DTB	Plane of the Astral (pattern body of electro-magnetic
substance) and which also a storage place to act as a recording
center for all kinds of moral/ethical events and problems. It is
said to be the lowest aspect of the Akasa.
7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) DTB THIS
APPEARS TO HAVE THE QUALITIES OF WHAT I TERM THE ASTRAL PLANE.
Just above here.
DTB	Physical Body and Physical matter of all kinds -- (in terms
of an earlier example its like the whirling fan blades that
resent an obstruction to other kinds of matter. When those
"blades" are stilled one can safely pass matter between them.
When in motion they obstruct or injure.)
==================================

I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the upper
three
planes using my abstract mind as best I can.
DTB	I would not try to pin-point in such a way, as all thought
when put into comprehensible words and expressions are filtered
through the "Lower Mind" or Kama-manas -- which is the link
between the "personality (the lower 4)" and the INDIVIDUALITY,
the Spiritual triad "above." This filter can sometimes distort
the understanding, or blur what one intends to convey.

I'm trying to understand these DTB	SO AM I

as best I can before again cycling downward through the four
"lower"
permutations of the these states of consciousness.
I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the
abstract mind and trying to receive
through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual
thought, of the
buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of
the Atmic
state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for
us,
perfected humanity.
------------------------------------------
DTB	IF YOU want to phrase it in that way, then do so. But I
don't think there is much profit in making such an identification
FROM THIS MATERIAL LEVEL OF CONCEPTUALIZATION. But as I say if
it helps than use the ideas and concepts.
But let me add a word of caution don't let them (present words
and ideas) trap you in altogether too defining boxes or limits.
(Our existence in "matter" has a tendency to make us rigid -- we
depend on past thinking and don't realise that we have graduated,
and need new concepts, l mean a phrase, words, ideas, etc... to
better define what we have added to our past conclusions and
definitions -- or, what we have learned and proved to ourselves
to be valid THEN.
If you notice, NATURE is made up of many combinations and does
not stop to reason out the whys and the wherefores. It does it
because it is RIGHT TO BE DONE. For us, we have (because we are
emerging from the gross limits of matter) to define as we go,
cautiously and with whatever degree of certainty we can muster.
But keep the definitions as a relatively unimportant aspect of
our work -- as I think you will find, as I did that this ability
to stay focused on a concept (but not on words) helps. So
difficult to convey exactly what I mean.
Another example: The word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS means nothing
to us until that moment when MANIFESTATION and EVOLUTION
rebegins. Then they achieve meaning as being that which
anteceded this fresh BEGINNING -- and remains as an unchanged
background. If you take a stone or a brick out of a wall the
SPACE is left there undisturbed.
=========================================
All of your comments are right-on and very well
reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further dance
with them
as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to
understand
the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love beyond
all
possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, our
solar
logos.
-----------------------------------------------
DTB	WILL OF GOD is a very strange expression as it places GOD as
a very large BEING somewhere -- as a kind of whimsical overseer
who at its pleasure might wave a hand or waft a thought and
render all activity fruitless and abortive. That to me is a
fallacy. ORDERLINESS does not depend on DISORDER or WHIMS, or
FANCY, or any kind of being however small or large. Every bit of
evidence I have secured points to LAW and ORDER and PROGRESS, and
the ACHIEVEMENT OF A GOAL.
One may indeed place LOVE at the head of all things, It may be a
transcendent DESIRE for the GOOD of ALL. I think that takes care
of the level of motive as it is universalized and made impersonal
"for the good of all."
But the WILL action that we AUTHORIZE and select, is the ability
to put this desire into living action. We may follow it, and see
it moving all the various links from plane to plane and principle
to principle, so as to finally engender a physical plane result,
action, etc... .
To me, it would imply a merging of the small self that we are
into the UNIVERSAL SELF of ALL. HARMONY is the KEY to true
LIVING. I think. One might even all it a kind of meditation as
such a repeated action brings on the attunement of all the
"Skandhas" (which are themselves Monads -- but of lesser
experience than ours).
I wonder if you read the article THE ELIXIR OF LIFE -- it is the
first in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY. It speaks there of the
transformation of our "little lives" (the skandhas) into a
permanent relation with us based on the honest and sincere
voluntary election to live and act "for the good of all
creatures."
==================================
To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect
and
one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like life
itself. To
more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and our
father's
will is a trip!
----------------------------------------------
DTB	I would say that the expressions used such as "face to face
with this will," and "our father's will" imply we know those are
NOT SEPARATE from us (except in the imagination of our lower
mind). As we grow in perception of the INNER MAN the potential
of rendering the virtues the real base for life and action
becomes more apparent.
One ought not to consider the Mind, the Will, the Buddhi, and
Atma as distant and remote. (I can see that our education has
tended to produce such an impress on us hat we think in those
terms. I can see how in school I was so impressed, but later I
saw this was not so).
I take the position that I am immortal because I am a "ray" of
the universal ATMAN. This is associated with UNIVERSAL MATTER
and the ensuing combination is also immortal and is called the
MONAD in evolution.
Of necessity the Mind (Manas) is associated with the MONAD and
all three form the IMMORTAL human EGO which is immortal and
eternal and passes from body to body life after life, always
growing and deepening its understanding of the ways and laws and
rules of NATURE -- the UNIVERSE in which it lives and in which it
participates (under the law of universal KARMA) with the work of
all other similar beings regardless of their altitude in terms of
wisdom, will, knowledge, etc...
This causes the Mind (Manas) to be tripartite: pure Manas
uninfluenced by desire. Manas influenced and aspiring to higher
wisdom and universally positive and "good" actions --
(Buddhi-Manas or Higher Manas). And 3, the Kama-Manas -- Lower
Manas, or that aspect of the mind which is under the influence of
selfish desires, emotions, passions, etc... And this influence
makes acts of selfish and careless evil possible.
The "true WE" is aware of these factors and in its momentary
decisions it voluntarily adopts one position or the other. As we
grow wise and realise that we have an ineradicable share in the
Universe (in which we have been living for aeons under many
"names" and in many races and bodies) we also realize that our
responsibilities as immortals, dealing with others who are also
immortals is a highly important one.
But that is enough I trust I have not abused your patience in all
this writing.
Best wishes as always and for the coming year
Dal

COMPANIONS INDEED. So glad to have met you again. Old friends
truly.

Companions,
Gene

========================================


----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM
Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?


> December 27, 2000
>
> Dear Gene:
>
> Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments
below
> in the body of yours?
>
> Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each
> principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the
> other principles at their level.
>
> So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably
> meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration
to
> dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and
> assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common
> understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts
and
> definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to
> have few words in English to be exact with.
> Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of
> "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness.
> Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of
> brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is
> that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified,
> persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is
> different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic
and
> similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own
> faculties, but not identical.
>
> Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether
Universal
> or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi
> (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental
> faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings,
> desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from
> Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to
> recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware
of
> them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through
> the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind."
>
we are the MIND -- which is also named the SOUL.