theos-talk.com

[MASTER INDEX] [DATE INDEX] [THREAD INDEX] [SUBJECT INDEX] [AUTHOR INDEX]

[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]

Re: Theos-World KARMA & REINCARNATION and TRUTH & FALSITY MIX

Jul 17, 2001 02:20 PM
by George Sanders


John: thank you for your promp reply to my quarry, yes am aware of he
"Self", none of us are free of the lower self experience and the path is to
the higher self..can we judge some one for the past experience if they have
moved into the higher self and are presently remaining there? again our
thanks, george
----- Original Message -----
From: "Compiler" <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World KARMA & REINCARNATION and TRUTH & FALSITY MIX


> George,
>
> My use of the words "lower-nature door" (in the below paragraph) was just
my
> own made-up-word (or phrase), simply my own way of referring to what I
think
> the paragraph clearly speaks of, nothing more. That's just the way it came
out
> at the moment I was composing the paragraph. I don't think I ever spoke of
the
> general idea in that particular way before. As students of the teachings
you
> probably already know that we each have a higher and a lower nature.
>
> > I suggest, for consideration, that all articles are always contemporary,
> > fresh, and originally written by our Movement's proposed new group, and
> > ONLY referring to, when it does actually refer to past teachers and
> > writers, HPB, WQJ, and the Adepts. Why? So as not to naturally open the
> > lower-nature door of any one associated with the new "United Team", or
> > any organization that our "United Team" members belong to; so that no
> > one feels in any way slighted or disturbed or angry or jealous, etc.
> > This would be a wise strategic move and method on our part, so that we
> > CAN MORE EASILY create an atmosphere where we can work together and
> > leave all past problems behind. We would also strategically leave
> > behind, in this new publication at least, any problems for our Movement
> > that past workers and leaders may have made; by this I mean with any
> > distortions of the Teaching, as well as with personality problems,
> > backstabbing, jockeying for power and position, and so on.
>
> John DeSantis
> (Compiler)
> -------
>
> George Sanders wrote:
>
> > Sorry to but in..but..."Why ? So as not to naturally open the
LOWER-NATURE
> > DOOR " (we are a growing group of students aprox. a year old, we find
the
> > above statement to be odd..would you please explain what you
meant...kindest
> > regards..george
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Compiler" <compiler@wisdomworld.org>
> > To: <theos-l@list.vnet.net>
> > Cc: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>; <study@blavatsky.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 5:42 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World KARMA & REINCARNATION and TRUTH & FALSITY MIX
> >
> > > ..To: Jerry Schueler
> > > From: John DeSantis (Compiler)
> > >
> > > >From your last message to me, in the "Theosophy Study List" forum,
> > > entitled
> > >
> > > ..RE: A United Action - to John DeSantis
> > > Date: Thursday, 12 July 2001 19:49:13 -0400
> > >
> > > Jerry, let me first try to address what you said in this excerpt about
> > > Karma & Reincarnation:
> > >
> > > =====================
> > > As far as the modern Theosophical Movement is concerned, I have
already
> > > pointed out in my postings several huge pitfalls that I see as likely
> > > killing the whole movement before the next Messenger has a chance to
> > > arrive. One of these is the continual (and almost mindless) emphasis
on
> > > exoteric karma and reincarnation that I see perpetuated by all of the
> > > TSs almost as if they were unaware of any esoteric ideas on these
> > > subjects to present to an already sceptical and resistant public. I
> > > sincerely hope that your union of writers will take my warning into
> > > consideration, together with the loving/concerned spirit in which I
> > > offer it (I am not so concerned with the health of the TSs so much as
I
> > > am with the health of the TM itself).
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, I wish you well and hope it works.
> > > =====================
> > >
> > > My reply for you and everyone to consider is this: I may be mistaken,
> > > and if I am I hope that you and others will correct me, but as a
> > > long-time student, I was under the general impression that our
> > > Theosophical Movement, in general, overall, was instructed by people
> > > like the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ, to not get too Theosophically-technical
> > > (using my own words here) when reaching out to the general mass of
> > > humanity. And that in plain everyday language we should do our best to
> > > concentrate on the doctrines of Universal Brotherhood, Karma &
> > > Reincarnation, Cycles, and so on with whatever doctrines and subjects
> > > that I may have left out here, in order to try and catch the attention
> > > of the general public who are not in any way familiar with Theosophy.
> > > And to try to make my point a little more, and even though it may be
> > > useful and appropriate in a Theosophical student forum like the one
you
> > > do a lot of commenting in (Theosophy Study List), since you spend so
> > > much time discussing and speculating on highly metaphysical things in
> > > many ways about monads, logos, and a thousand and one other difficult
> > > and arcane subjects, using so much of the difficult language too, I
for
> > > one would never want to have an enquirer and newcomer be exposed to
this
> > > stuff in their early stages of running into Theosophy, since all it
will
> > > most likely do, in most cases, is make the person's eyes roll in their
> > > heads, scare them as something that is way too difficult, if they
don't
> > > immediately think it is hogwash, and have them head for the hills
never
> > > to look back on Theosophy again for a long time to come. As for
myself,
> > > and guided by the suggestions (or straightout instructions, if that be
> > > the case) of the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ, I'm a firm believer in offering
a
> > > very careful initial "sequence" of various Theosophical ideas and
> > > subjects, as I do in this compilation of articles that make up the
> > > Introductory "Setting the Stage" book on my WisdomWorld.org web site:
> > > http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html -- which book is especially
> > > geared for newcomers, as well as scholars, investigators, scientists,
> > > and so on in the mix of the 166 compiled articles. Everyone should
keep
> > > in mind, from a sequential point of view, that the Adepts and HPB gave
> > > the world the book "Isis Unveiled" eleven years before they presented
> > > "The Secret Doctrine" book to humanity.
> > > -------
> > >
> > > Now let me try to address what you have said about this particular
> > > paragraph from my "starting-ideas" proposal entitled "A 'UNITED
ACTION'
> > > FOR OUR THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT":
> > >
> > > =====================
> > > I suggest, for consideration, that all articles are always
contemporary,
> > > fresh, and originally written by our Movement's proposed new group,
and
> > > ONLY referring to, when it does actually refer to past teachers and
> > > writers, HPB, WQJ, and the Adepts. Why? So as not to naturally open
the
> > > lower-nature door of any one associated with the new "United Team", or
> > > any organization that our "United Team" members belong to; so that no
> > > one feels in any way slighted or disturbed or angry or jealous, etc.
> > > This would be a wise strategic move and method on our part, so that we
> > > CAN MORE EASILY create an atmosphere where we can work together and
> > > leave all past problems behind. We would also strategically leave
> > > behind, in this new publication at least, any problems for our
Movement
> > > that past workers and leaders may have made; by this I mean with any
> > > distortions of the Teaching, as well as with personality problems,
> > > backstabbing, jockeying for power and position, and so on.
> > > =====================
> > >
> > > Your response was to both the above excerpt and this excerpt in a
> > > message of mine to you:
> > >
> > > =====================
> > > Anyway, I hope our worldwide Theosophical Movement can slowly come
> > > together and rise to the occasion with a skillful "United Team"
effort.
> > > For the sake of humanity, I sure hope you are eventually proven to be
> > > wrong in thinking that it can't be done -- and who is needed to come
> > > together, at all times in the future, but only the "wise and
> > > knowledgeable" from within the Movement, so that they can always work
> > > TOGETHER, in COLLABORATIVE authoring of all articles? You wouldn't
want
> > > a dummy like me to be part of the "Team" effort that would constantly
> > > have a dialogue with the scholars and experts in the worlds of
science,
> > > religion, philosophy, education, and social problems, as well as every
> > > other important subject under the sun, would you? :-) ;-)
> > > =====================
> > >
> > > Jerry, based on the combined above two excerpts, you said:
> > >
> > > =====================
> > > To me, and this is just my own opinion here, I honestly think that the
> > > ONLY way a united effort will ever work is to eliminate ALL
> > > contentiousness and to pull in everyone, including even CWL, (who even
> > > Adyar folks seem to want to ignore) into some kind of acceptance. My
own
> > > personal favorites are Purucker and Long, because their writings have
> > > helped me the most, and these will not be allowed in your union. I
also
> > > like some of the psychic work of CWL and Kuntz which I would put under
> > > the spirit of the 3rd Objective. Also, a small book by Emily Seelon
(The
> > > Pilgrim and the Pilgrimage) is one of my favorite Adyar books in my
> > > library. In summary, there is much good to be found in "neo-Theosophy"
> > > and to throw it all out is at best shortsighted. When we Theosophists
> > > are able to truly forgive (not necessarily forget) then we should be
> > > able to open our doors to everyone. Until then, I will wait.
> > > =====================
> > >
> > > Jerry, please remember that I clearly presented my "United" proposal
> > > only as "starting-ideas" for everyone to consider, just a starting
> > > point, with nothing carved in stone; from a person not even qualified
to
> > > be a writer on the team (myself). So before I continue, and based on
> > > what you said above, the only thing that I want to add to the "A
'UNITED
> > > ACTION' FOR OUR THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT" message at this time is this
> > > idea, which I already presented in my recent message entitled "THE
ROAD
> > > TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS": "That maybe, just maybe our
> > > THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT will only have a chance to come together, and
> > > write together, if ALL articles are ALWAYS freshly written, and point
to
> > > NO ONE, and to the words of NO ONE; and when they do point to someone,
> > > that it is only HPB and the ADEPTS -- since these are the people we
> > > surely all have something in common with, and can rally around."
> > >
> > > With that said, my response, offered as food for thought to consider,
to
> > > what you said in the above excerpt, about the "United Team" having an
> > > ongoing dialogue with the best minds and scholars, and experts, and
> > > scientists within humanity, and freely quoting from everyone, like
> > > Beasnt, Tingley, Leadbeater, Purucker, and on and on with all past
> > > workers and leaders, is this:
> > >
> > > But let me first say that I am about to speak only of the general idea
> > > about Theosophical ideas and concepts being presented by a skilled
> > > "United Team" who also freely point to people, and quote from them,
who
> > > have spoken and written in their Theosophical careers in the three
forms
> > > of Truth, Falsity and Mistaken notions -- in other words, and used
> > > simply to make my point, I am only assuming that all of the people you
> > > mentioned, and others, have presented at various times in their
> > > Theosophical careers ideas in all three of the ways. Only other
students
> > > much more knowledgeable than me can point out any specific cases.
> > >
> > > Its obvious, based on all of our different opinions, different
> > > Theosophical organizations that we have each come up through, the
> > > different leaders of them all, the different workers and writers that
we
> > > each have read and have an affinity with, and with all of the past
> > > problems that were created and experienced from before our time, that
we
> > > must, all together, work real hard to figure out a way to overcome all
> > > this so that we can have a real chance to create a "United
Theosophical
> > > Movement" -- one that can skillfully dialogue with humanity at the
> > > highest levels. The past is the past, and the many problems based on
> > > that past, which we can each probably find things to bolster our many
> > > opinions, arguments, and feelings, likes and dislikes, in a thousand
> > > ways, based on the actions and the writings of so many people and
> > > publications all through the years, what can we begin to do now so
that
> > > in the future we can be effective as a "United Team" that meets
humanity
> > > with the highest caliber of Theosophical truths?
> > >
> > > Here are some raw "starting ideas" to consider, presented in no
> > > particular order; thoughts that I have about our proposed "United
Team",
> > > on the subject of their drawing quotes from all the past and present
> > > workers and writers in our Movement, other than just speaking of them
> > > and drawing from them when writing from strictly an historical point
of
> > > view -- when pointing out the good, the bad, the ugly, along with the
> > > truths, the falsities, and the mistaken notions:
> > >
> > > Can our Movement be truly effective if a "United Team" is put together
> > > that draws from the writings from people who have written things
during
> > > their Theosophical careers that, on a regular basis, come out of a
mixed
> > > bag, so to say -- sometimes true, sometimes mistaken to some degree,
and
> > > sometimes straightout false? For instance: If a united writing team,
and
> > > their web site and publication, IS formed, would it be wise for them
to
> > > ever quote from a person in our past, on something that the particular
> > > Theosophist they quote from wrote or said that was true, from a
> > > Theosophical point of view, and no matter how much good stuff he or
she
> > > put out, that inspired and helped many students, if the skilled
> > > scientists, and scholars, and experts in the world, can point to
plenty
> > > of things that the same Theosophical writer or worker or leader in the
> > > past wrote or said, that is easily proved to be false or mistaken,
even
> > > among the wisest of Theosophists, from the top down? What would that
do
> > > for our Movement? How would we be ripped apart and embarrassed by the
> > > experts? Would this be a wise strategy for our United Team? Etc., etc.
> > >
> > > With the above food for thought questions and ideas to consider,
without
> > > me having to write them all again, what about if a Theosophical
teacher
> > > or writer or worker, who was loved and respected and read by many
> > > students, and who said and wrote many wonderful things that were truly
> > > in line with the teachings, along with, as above, other things that
were
> > > not and can be proven to be distortions, like any of us might do who
> > > have been more or less serious theosophical students for a while, was
> > > also exposed as a sexual pervert in some ways, in the eyes of most of
> > > humanity, and the scholars and experts also pointed out both the
unsound
> > > concepts and ideas along with the character flaws. How would our
"United
> > > Theosophical Team" be able to overcome this in dialoguing with the
> > > experts in all fields?
> > >
> > > What about also featuring, no matter how talented in many ways, the
> > > writings and teachings from leaders and writers who in the end turned
on
> > > HPB in some way, as well as their putting out a combination of true,
> > > false and mistaken theosophical concepts? How does our United Team
> > > overcome the use this would be put to by the skilled scholars and
> > > experts in science, religions, and philosophy that they are conversing
> > > with in front of humanity?
> > >
> > > What about any of our past leaders and writers who may have presented
> > > someone to the Theosophical Movement, and to the world, as the next
> > > Messiah, so to say? What would that do for our "United Team", when
their
> > > critics and opponents latch onto that and use it, after the Team
quoted
> > > some reasonable, good, and even true Theosophical concepts that the
> > > person or persons in Theosophical history wrote?
> > >
> > > If ideas rule the world, and we are interested in putting forth the
pure
> > > and reliable Theosophy presented by HPB and the Adepts, that can stand
> > > the test and the heat of battle in the "ideas" and "truth" arenas, but
> > > instead we also put forth the writings and ideas of everyone else,
much
> > > of which maybe cannot take the heat of this battle of ideas, concepts,
> > > and so on, how can we ever hope to win the day?
> > >
> > > I will stop adding more to the above, even though I and probably
> > > everyone else could continue to add to the above few starting-ideas to
> > > the basic point I am trying to make.
> > >
> > > Jerry, in my heart, I, too, like you and so many others from our
> > > different organizations, would love to see everyone included, as far
as
> > > who and what the "United Team" would use as ammunition to draw from in
> > > their task of presenting Theosophical concepts in every possible way
in
> > > all fields. But would it be wise to include the writings from everyone
> > > in this endeavor -- especially if plenty of what they wrote and said,
> > > along with the good stuff, maybe couldn't stand the test? Would we
have
> > > a chance to build a "United Team Action" that can win the day, and
keep
> > > winning it, so as to become respected worldwide, no matter what the
> > > subject being spoken of is?
> > >
> > > To try and conclude: The above things are probably only a small
fraction
> > > of the things that our Movement has to deal with in order to figure
out
> > > the best and wisest and smartest way to go. Pleas remember that I only
> > > offer "starting-ideas", as I say over and over again in my "United
Team
> > > Action" proposals and suggestions and aspirations. Hopefully you and
> > > many others will add to the many things we have to consider.
> > >
> > > Am I dead wrong in thinking that we will have the best chance to
include
> > > everyone on this team that is capable, from all organizations, no
matter
> > > who they read and learned from, because they will want to be
associated
> > > with the team effort, if we strategically, out of wise necessity, only
> > > stick with the teachings as presented by the Adepts, HPB, and WQJ (or
> > > just the Adepts and HPB), when our "United Team" does point to the
ideas
> > > and words and writings of others, when not strictly presenting, fresh
> > > and new, what they composed themselves?
> > >
> > > To try and summarize all that is above, let me ask this: Can truth,
> > > falsity, and mistaken notions, all combined in what each of our many
> > > past writers have ever presented, if that be the case, ever actually
> > > have a chance to win the day if this is what our "United Team Action",
> > > as I have proposed, must draw from, exposing their action to their
> > > critics and skilled opponents in the world of ideas, in order to
satisfy
> > > each of our lower natures, whenever they are not simply writing fresh
> > > stuff, which, hopefully, would be most of the time?
> > >
> > > To conclude: It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that no matter how
> > > much great and important work and loving service for humanity, and for
> > > our Theosophical Movement, any of our fellow workers and leaders in
the
> > > various Theosophical organizations did in their careers, in the past,
> > > and even in the present, if they have said and written many things
> > > concerning Theosophical realities, ideas, concepts, and doctrines,
which
> > > are NOT True, but are false and/or mistaken, then it would be wise for
> > > our proposed "United Team" to NOT point to them or quote from them,
> > > except when actually pointing our their false and/or mistaken notions
in
> > > front of the whole watching world.
> > >
> > > Hopefully you and many others will offer their views for all of us to
> > > consider.
> > >
> > > Fraternally yours in Universal Brotherhood,
> > >
> > > John DeSantis
> > > (Compiler)
> > > -------
> > >
> > > You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for
here:
> > >
> > > Wisdom World web site (Main Page):
> > > http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html
> > >
> > > The Index page of the Introductory, "Setting the Stage" book:
> > > http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html
> > >
> > > The page where "Additional" articles are steadily being added:
> > > http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html
> > >
> > > -------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Back to Top]


Theosophy World: Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application