Theos-Talk Archives (January 2002 Message tt00329)

Dear Gerald,

Do I understand from the passage below that you do not think that 
part of the study of theosophy is to endeavor to incorporate the 
principles it teaches, such as altruism or the unity of all life, into 
one's daily life?

> I learned this exact saame message in Christian Science many many
> years ago. Christian Scientists are avid in their belief system
> BECAUSE they can demonstrate it in their lives. The same can be said
> for Christian fundamentalists, and I have several in my family who
> demonstrate the living presence of Jesus in their daily lives, and so
> on and on. Theosophy is no different.

What purpose do you think spiritual teaching has if not to inform its 
students about the real meaning of life and to guide them in 
becoming more responsible beings?

> We can never ever KNOW anything at all. I am speaking here from the
> viewpoint of occult psychology. All we can ever hope to know is what
> we actually experience and what we hear from the experiences of
> others. Even modern physics avoids "facts" and "laws" nowdays,
> prefering "theories" which is, in point of fact, a more accurate
> phraseology. Knowledge is manas, wisdom is atma-buddhi. In fact,
> Qabalism teaches us that the eleventh Sephiroth is Daath, which means
> knowledge, and locates it in the Great Outer Abyss.

You are correct in insisting on the word "wisdom" in this context, in 
contrast to "knowledge." But I would be equally careful about using 
the word "never." That may apply if we are talking about finite 
beings, but we are not finite beings. We only appear to be finite, 
and getting stuck in appearances is not very helpful in illuminating 
understanding. In our finite appearance, it may be true that we can 
never know anything at all. But if we regard ourselves as infinite 
beings, following the path of evolution of consciousness, then we 
realize that we are gaining knowledge, experience, and eventually 
wisdom, every moment of our lives. Physics, as a material 
science, may be helpful in some ways to the student, but relying on 
material science to explain or in any way illuminate occultism 
(metaphysics) is going to lead to disappointment. 
> 
> What Theosophists do, and any one else for that matter, is believe
> that they know. We have faith in Blavatsky, and we can demonstrate to
> some degree the truth of her teachings, and then we think that we know
> facts and laws etc, whereas all we can ever hope to know is what we
> experience and what others tell us that they experience. There is
> absolutely no way to KNOW if these experiences are accurate, and I say
> this because I know from my own personal experience that experience
> changes, that worldviews mature and expand, that "facts" change, that
> "knowledge" matures, that "laws" are relative. So, the only thing that
> we can really know is that knowledge itelf is relative.

So you don't believe that there are eternal laws? Or you don't know 
what they are, since they haven't presented themselves in your 
individual experience yet? It seems to me that you are judging 
occult teaching by material standards, and I wonder why you would 
do that, since occultism is by definition inclusive of much more 
than material phenomena. 

> Ah, but here is your problem, Adelasie, faith is never "simple." Faith
> can move mountains. Our entire universe and our human world is all
> based and cemented together by faith. Faith is an extremely powerful
> force, and it is really all we have, and when coupled with
> imagination, is all we ever really need. Faith is the bedrock of life,
> and imagination is the bedrock of evolution and development.

Perhaps you are saying that faith is a result of wisdom? That belief 
is what we assume when we allow ourselves to be told, but wisdom 
is what we attain to when we have proven to ourselves through 
experience some truth of life, and that faith is what comes to us when we 
gain wisdom regarding some aspect of life?
> 
> I have been there, and I can tell you right now that "higher knowing"
> isn't what its cracked up to be. It just a higher faith. But if you
> don't want to listen to me, then thats OK, one day you will see this
> for yourself.

Let's read "wisdom" in place of "higher knowing." That which is 
gained through experience informed by knowledge.


> Let me be the first to tell you this secret truth: the Path to True
> Knowledge is a manas game that has no existence whatsoever. There is
> no True Knowledge. Your true knowledge is just as valid as mine, in
> the final outcome. But I agree that one must tread a Path and search
> honestly and hard, and expend much effort, in order to finally realize
> this secret truth. Having said that, I can also say that some paths
> lead to suffering, while other paths lead to pleasure, and yet other
> paths lead to compassion and caring and helping. It is up to each of
> us to pick our own path, but there is "true knowledge" in all of them,
> and also in none of them. This secret truth is dangerous, and I
> probably shouldn't be giving it out here, but what the heck. Anyway,
> my point here is that we should be treading the Path to Wisdom, which
> is a valid Path, not the Path to True Knowledge, which is an illusion.

But the path to wisdom is the path of experience guided by 
knowledge. Wouldn't you say that is true?

> No, they may have found a connection to what they perceive as
> universal truth, and they may have found a connection to a relative
> inner truth, or simply have expanding their worldview. But there is no
> "universal truth" to point to, anywhere you want to point. There is no
> "universal knowledge" for us to acquire. These are manas games that
> our human mind likes to play. Blavatsky herself tells us that there
> are no universals or ultimates anywhere.

When I meet someone whom I find to have attained to some degree 
of wisdom, I recognize them by the way they live their life, not by 
what they say. In fact, some of the wisest people I have known do 
not attempt to prove their wisdom in any way. They simply live 
according to the laws of life, with altruism and kindness to others 
foremost in their behavior. We see everything in the context of our 
own limitations, but we are not completely ignorant of nature's laws. 
It would be rare to find a person who did not believe, for instance, 
that loyalty is a valuable quality, whether or not they are 
themselves loyal. Do you not find that there are certain underlying 
qualities that determine our worth as useful people in the world? 
And does this not indicate that there might be some universal truth 
to be gained, which could transcend the experience of one lifetime? 
Isn't this what theosophy teaches us, what these qualities are and 
how to make them a part of our own lives?
> 
Fraternally,
Adelasie