Theos-Talk Archives (September 2002 Message tt00192)

Hi Wry,

You may be interested in the works of Aryel Sanat. His THE INNER LIFE OF
KRISHNAMURTI offers a possible reconciliation between K's teachings and
Theosophy. It goes a long way to show that there was no real repudiation
of Theosophy of K's part. There are many in K's camp who would want us to
believe that he did so, and exaggerate their assertions to prove their
point. these people would seen to want a Church of K or some such, which
K himself would have condemned in an instant. All his life K tried to
avoid a cult mystique about himself, which really began with this speech
you quote. That does not constitute a repudiation of Theosophy, but
rather a challange to get beyond mere organizational structure and begin
to reflect on more important things.

Larry Kolts

Larry Kolts 

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:57:36 -0700 "wry" <wry1111@earthlink.net> writes:
> J. Krishnamurti dissolving the Order of the Star of the EastHi Bart. 
> I cannot give a direct quote that Krishnamurti called theosophy 
> "nonsense," and I acknowledge that he did not publicly say these 
> exact words, but I am forwarding his famous talk, given, when he 
> dissolved the Order of the Star. I believe most people on here have 
> read this, but maybe not. I have spent thirty-three years interested 
> in what Krishnamurti has to say. Krishnamurti's whole teaching is 
> saying, in my opinion, that the teaching of theosophy and anything 
> like it is nonsense.This does not mean to imply that there are not 
> certain patterns of organization in nature, such as the law of 
> seven, for example, or that there are not astral or etheric fields 
> or planes or however it is that theosophy puts it, BUT that pursuing 
> this kind of study perpetrates accumulation rather then brings an 
> end it. In this sense, according to his teaching, as I understand it 
> (and he was very clear about the folly of trying to develop or 
> figure things out in the way I see many people on these theosophy 
> lists trying to do,) to study theosophy and the writings of Madame 
> Blavatsky would be nonsense If you read his works, you will come to 
> this time and time again. There can be no question of it. In some 
> ways I agree with him. In other ways I may not. Krishnamurti was no 
> authority, nor am I. This is why enquiry is so important. If a 
> spirit of genuine enquiry can be nourished into flowering, perhaps 
> we will discover something that is not based on a previous 
> formulation. 
> 
> I believe the subject of K, how he arose (as an interconnection and 
> out of an interconnection) and the time-appropriate function he 
> preformed (as an interconnection) is very complex and not as simple 
> as people tend to make it. As I have said, I have come, in the last 
> ten years, to realize that, in some ways, Krishnamurti idealized 
> certain factors and this is sad to me, but not bad. As I see it, it 
> is just a fact. And I may be wrong about this. At the appropriate 
> time, maybe here, or maybe on a Krishnamurti list, I am willing to 
> enquire very deeply into the subject of if and how Krishnamurti may 
> have idealized certain material, as this would be an enquiry I would 
> find very valuable and interesting.
> 
> To finish (for now), here is a quote by K from You Are The World, 
> page 98: "So our question is whether a human being can be made to 
> feel--not forcibly nor through sanctions and fear--that he must 
> change completely. If he does not change, he will create a world (or 
> rather perpetrate a world) in which there is misery, suffering, 
> death and despair; and no amount of theory, theological speculation 
> or bureaucratic sanctions are going to solve this problem. So what 
> is one to do? Faced with all this confusion, strife, this 
> antagonism, violence and brutality, what is a human being to do? How 
> is he to act? I wonder if one asks this question seriously of 
> oneself--not sentimentally, romantically, nor merely in an 
> enthusiastic moment, but as a question constantly present in all its 
> seriousness. And I wonder how we will answer? We might declare that 
> it is not possible to change so deeply, immediately and 
> fundamentally, so as to create a new society. But the moment you say 
> it is not possible, then it is settled: you have blocked yourself. 
> If one says it is possible, then one is confronted with the question 
> of how to bring about the psychological transformation within 
> oneself. So what is one to do? Escape by subscribing to some 
> sectarian belief or by running away into a monastery where you 
> practice Zen Buddhism? By joining a new cult or sect which promises 
> everything you want?" 
> 
> Please read the forward that is below. Hope this message has 
> clarified a bit. I am not here to undermine theosophy, but to 
> explore and discover with you. Sincerely, Wry p.s. Thanks Katinka, 
> for a most wonderful website. The work you have done in putting that 
> material together in such an inspired and orderly manner is 
> invaluable to me. I.have never before seen the interview with Ruben 
> Ernesto Feldman-Gonzales, and it is most extraorninary. I have 
> literally cried tears of joy and gratitude at finding this. This is 
> for everyone: he asked K how he would summarize his teaching in only 
> one sentence and K answered, " attempt without effort to live with 
> death in futureless silence." 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: wry 
> To: wry1111@earthlink.net 
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:03 AM
> Subject: J. Krishnamurti dissolving the Order of the Star of the 
> East.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Krishnamurti home - Krishnamurti links - Katinka's weblife - Lost? 
> Sitemap 
> Eclectic Theosophical History
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> 
> Lecture given by J. Krishnamurti, in 1929, 
> when he dissolved the Order of the Star of the East.
> 
> 
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> 
> We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of 
> the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It 
> is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is 
> inevitable, as I am going to explain.... 
> 
> I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it 
> by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my 
> point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. 
> Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path 
> whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be 
> formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you 
> first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to 
> organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you 
> cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, 
> crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed 
> on others. 
> 
> This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. 
> Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, 
> for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be 
> brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend 
> to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley.... 
> 
> So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of 
> the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably 
> form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other 
> organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any 
> organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this.... 
> 
> If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, 
> a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent 
> him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in 
> the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So 
> that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the 
> Head of the Order, to dissolve it. 
> 
> This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I 
> mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. 
> I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I 
> want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with 
> unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one 
> essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all 
> cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to 
> establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally 
> ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell 
> you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not 
> because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love 
> to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd 
> and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage 
> that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth 
> or in the realm of spirituality. 
> 
> Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable 
> life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I 
> would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking 
> frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want 
> these childish discussion year after year. 
> 
> A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a 
> magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were 
> thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act 
> because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? 
> You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If 
> there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have 
> their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what 
> use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully 
> embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather 
> translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?.... 
> 
> Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the 
> relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who 
> seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out 
> of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should 
> they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the 
> fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of 
> love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an 
> artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, 
> because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I 
> do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are 
> accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you 
> think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another 
> can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this 
> realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on 
> life is based on that authority. 
> 
> You have listened to me for three years now, without any change 
> taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be 
> critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally.... 
> 
> For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the 
> Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, 
> you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your 
> hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would 
> give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a 
> new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would 
> set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with 
> yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you 
> different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a 
> badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief 
> swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to 
> judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every 
> society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way 
> have the members of this organisation of the Star become 
> different?.... 
> 
> You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for 
> your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone 
> else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, 
> for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of 
> the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, 
> but very, very few. So why have an organisation?.... 
> 
> No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, 
> nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can 
> forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves 
> into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but 
> you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you 
> are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many 
> members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by 
> all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their 
> number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do 
> not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there 
> were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.... 
> 
> Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to 
> the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority 
> to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development 
> and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone 
> is the Kingdom of Eternity.... 
> 
> You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, 
> what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can 
> tell you if you are incorruptible?.... 
> 
> But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find 
> that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will 
> walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything 
> that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will 
> concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. 
> Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that 
> true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real 
> co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of 
> authority, not because of salvation, but because you really 
> understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is 
> a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice. 
> 
> So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration 
> for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary 
> impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not 
> persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about 
> this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to 
> disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other 
> organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, 
> nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My 
> only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free. 
> 
> 
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> 
> Krishnamurti home - Krishnamurti links - Katinka's weblife - Lost? 
> Sitemap
> 
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.