Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00731)

Leon : differences between being WHITE or BLACK in the US -- while it  
still exists to a certain degree, it is very much less than before.

Brian: On the other hand "racism" in the US did increase in the wake of 
(after) the Civil War. 

And today's Christian Identity can be described as the recasting of the 
older British- Israelite creed on white racial nationalist, anti Semitic, 
and, largely, National Socialist grounds. British-Israelism took shape in 
England at the latter part of the nineteenth century. Inspired in part by =

seventeenth century Puritan teachings and the visions of British naval 
officer Richard Brothers (1757-1854), who claimed to be a direct 
descendant of King David, British-Israelism identifies the Northern 
European, and by extension white American, nations with the lost tribes 
of Israel. It differs from Puritan beliefs in claiming not only a spiritual=
, 
but a genealogical identification with the Chosen People of God. This 
makes Europeans the principal actors of the Bible and thus implies an 
ambiguous relationship with the Jews, who would be either relatives or 
masquerading impostors. British-Israelism proper generally resolved this 
tension by identifying Jews with the House of Judah. This conclusion led 
British- Israelites to enthusiastically support early Zionism as it would 
mean a reunification of the two Kingdoms in the Holy Land, which was 
then a British protectorate. 

Alarmed by Zionist demands for an independent Jewish state which in 
effect would ruin the British-Israelite project of world salvation, a laten=
t 
anti - Semitism transpired, voicing doubts as to the Jews' true identity. 
This negative attitude would be greatly accentuated on American soil, 
where British-Israelism metamorphosed into Christian Identity. Early 
proponents of the new gospel in America were M. M. Eshelman, 
minister in the Church of Brethren and author of The Two Sticks or the 
Lost Tribes of Israel Discovered (1887), and J. H. Allen, whose Judah's 
Scepter and Joseph's Birthright (1902) became a bestseller, spreading 
British-Israelism in Adventist and Bible study groups, and it is still wide=
ly 
read in Identity circles. 

Though separate congregations were established in the United States, 
British-Israelism mainly gained ground as a theological tendency among 
individual ministers and laymen of conventional denominations, who 
were bound together in loose networks or associations. Its theology 
was, of course, not all that new in a land incorporating an 
(analogous) "New Jerusalem" identity as part of a national creed. 
Mormonism had already taken this notion a step further, claiming a 
genealogical connection between its adherents and biblical Israel. 

Struggling with its relationship to the Jewish people, Mormonism, like 
British-Israelism, in general adopted a philo-Semitic position, although 
schismatic groups have developed a virulent anti-Semitism on par with 
Christian Identity. 

The formative period of Christian Identity could roughly be said to be the =

three decades between 1940 and 1970. Through missionaries like 
Wesley Swift, Bertrand Comparet and William Potter Gale, it took on a 
white racialist, anti-Semitic, anti-Communist and a far-right conservative =

political outlook. Combined with the teachings of early disciples Richard 
G. Butler, Colonel Jack Mohr and James K. Warner, a distinct racist 
theology was gradually formed. Whites were said to be the Adamic 
people, created in His likeness. A notion of a pre-earthly existence is 
found in an important substratum, teaching that whites either had a 
spiritual or extraterrestrial pre-existence. Blacks were either preAdamic 
soulless creatures or represented fallen, evil spirits, but they were not 
the chief target of fear and hatred. This position was reserved for Jews. =

The latent anti-Semitism found in British-Israelism rose to prominence. 
Jews were, at best, reduced to mongrelized impostors, not infrequently 
identified with Eurasian Khazars without any legitimate claim to a 
closeness with God, and at worst denounced as the offspring of Satan. 

While many Identity Christians interpret this relationship between Jews 
and Satan as a spiritual bond, many Identity theologians advocate a 
more literal blood-line linkage. Most renowned is the two-seed theory, 
according to which Eve not only gave birth to Adam's son Abel, but also 
to Satan's son, Cain, after having been seduced in a more down-to-
earth manner. (2) The subsequent murder of Abel was thus not a 
fratricide, but the first attempt to exterminate God's children. Whites and=
 
Jews are thus representations of the divine and the diabolical on earth, 
locked in an eternal combat now approaching its predestined end. This 
opposition could be accentuated into philosophical dualism, like in the 
teachings of Robert Miles, who taught that God and Satan represented 
two primal forces that used earth as a battleground to which they had 
sent down armies of look-alike races, angelic soldiers of light versus 
darkness, in their quest for cosmic dominion. An accentuated 
apocalyptic consciousness pervaded Christian Identity, whose adherents 
awaited a future more uncertain than most prophecy-believing 
millenarian mainstream Christians. 

In general, Christian Identity gave no room for the "rapture," the 
miraculous physical escape from the impeding world destruction 
common in fundamentalist Christianity. On the contrary, Identity 
believers understood their task in terms of the Old Testament, in which 
God used his people as combat soldiers. There was to be a global war, 
and true believers had better to be prepared for the coming onslaught in 
which evil would be exterminated by the army of God, led by "General 
Jesus." (3) Thus, a militarized white racial religion took hold in the 
United States. 

Identifying the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic-Scandinavic peoples with 
the lost tribes of Israel strengthened the sacred dimension of the 
American project. This was the Holy Land, taken by "divine conquest," 
as God, as in the Old Testament, mandated His People to "go in and kill 
every human being and possess the land. (4) White Americans were of 
Marmaseh, prophesied to become a "great nation," (5) which in effect 
made the American "nation" racially exclusive by divine command.  
Identity logically held the Articles of Confederation and the original 
Constitution to be biblical documents. The extent to which Mosaic law 
would be followed in all its pedantic details varied among Identity 
congregations, from the strictest observance-including circumcision of 
male children-to a more conventional Christian understanding, claiming 
that Aryan Jesus had made the ritual ordinances unnecessary. Many 
chose Hebrew names for their children and celebrate Sabbath, 
Passover, and other Jewish holidays. 

British-Israelism was soon followed by the Theosophical Society with a 
clear Aryan supremacy theory, that also claimed the US would be the 
seat of the future, ( 6e Aryan "sub-") race, the Teutonic being the 
momentarily leading, (5e Aryan "sub-") race. 

Like the other two groups Theosophy will have high on its banner that 
Humanity is "one" Brotherhood, as long everybody knows who the "elder 
brothers" are and where the various "sub –races" stand. One of the two 
major spokespersons for the "White Brotherhood" made this clear in 
the "Mahatma Letters" to Newspaper editor A.P. Sinnet Koot Hoomi in 
British India: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub=
-
race of the fifth—yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of 
mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race,  
Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, 
Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of 
the fourth and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, =

degraded semblances of humanity." (6) 

According to this teaching the President of the Theosophial Society A. 
Besant wrote: "Colonial expansion and territorial conquest as a 
migration of races for the ultimate enrichment of the Fifth Race. This 
sweep of time, measured in aeons and evolving land-masses, dissolves 
the political immediacy of imperialism. The race of Teutons, the fifth sub-=

race of the Fifth Race, is now spreading over the world, has occupied 
greater part of North America, driving before it the old Atlantean stock; 
it has seized Australia and New Zealand, remnants of still more ancient 
Lemuria, and the poor relic that dying Race are vanishing before it. High 
is it rearing its proud head over the countries of the globe, destined to 
build a world-wide Empire, and to sway the destinies of the civilization." =

(7) 

To recapitulate the evolutionary scheme briefly as presented in 
theosophy: the first two races are distinguished from the succeeding 
three in that they are self-born and sexless, their evolution being 
coterminous with the formation of land masses and oceans. Sexuality, 
differentiation, and identity commence with the third root-race. The 
disclaimer that the term root-race has no connection with the ideas 
associated with ethnic groups or racial strains" is immediately nullified 
by the very language of classification and hierarchy. (8) 
Even without further detail, the admission that each race is associated 
with a particular homeland makes a mockery of the disclaimer. 

Despite individual differences between theosophists, there is remarkably 
little divergence in the evolutionary scheme they present. In fact, the 
impression of a lack of originality evoked by their common discourse 
works eerily on the reader, who is made to feel that this new mythology 
is virtually interchangeable with science, so strongly is its content fixed=
 
and closed to interpretation. 

During the 1925 Jubilee Convention, the Theosophical Society declared 
as one of its aims the establishment of a World Government (Ransom, A 
short History of the TS ,1950, p. 23.) and a "World Teacher" was 
appointed with leading members of the TS publicly announced to be the 
reincarnation of the twelve apostles. (9) 

But although Theosophy made claims like all cycles "end with 
destruction," as did also later Aum Sinrikyio (Tokyo Sarin gas attacks), 
this is not an (esoteric) Buddhist belief, but rather is inspired by the 
Apocalypse in the Bible. Many scholars have analyzed the teachings of 
the TS and came to the conclusion that they are a mythologization of 
ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe and the "Mahatma 
Letters" should be seen as a fraud. 

The different theories explaining the various races on earth in 
Theosophy have proven able to be combined in multiple variations, 
without altering the basic theme of a cosmic combat between forces of 
good and evil represented on earth in human form. 

Later Identity ministers, notably Pete Peters, Mark Thomas, Bob 
Hallstrorn and Michael A. Hoffman II, would continue the path of 
radicalization. The formative years coincided with the rise of the black 
civil rights movement and the subsequent transformation of American 
race relations. Segregation was a painful process for many white 
racialists, who found themselves in opposition to a federal government 
that at times did not hesitate to force its will against whites in a racial=
 
conflict. Black Power grew as a dynamic force, and a series of violent 
race-motivated upheavals struck fear in many American hearts. 
Affirmative action was viewed as reversed racism, and for the first time 
many white Americans found a racially motivated system to their 
disadvantage. (10) 

Immigration laws that had restricted the bulk of new Americans to racial 
kin were altered to pave the way for a huge influx of Latin American and 
Asian migrants. Were white Americans to become a minority in their 
own country? The defeat in Vietnam added to the confusion. For the first 
time in American history, a war did not end in a victory. Unable to 
explain how the largest military power in the world could be so 
embarrassingly beaten to -the ground by a small nation, the betrayed-by-
their-leaders theory took hold as a viable explanation and was recycled 
in an endless stream of movie productions. (11) 

All these traumatic social tribulations contributed to the mental universe =

of the second generation Identity adherents. During the 1970s and 
1980s, the far right went through a process of increasing radicalization. 
Where the earlier generation had been mainly conservative and 
reactionary, revolutionary sentiments now proliferated as the federal 
government gradually emerged as the enemy of the white race. During 
this time, Christian Identity became widely diffused in National Socialist =

and right wing extremist circles as a religious rationale for racialist 
thought. Most of the more prominent leaders were either Christian 
Identity ministers or passed through Christian Identity. Identity become a =

unifying element in the otherwise fragmented and in-fighting American 
radical right. Through ministries managing to stay slightly above the 
complex intrigues, yearly gatherings during the 1980s were held at 
Miles' Mountain Church in Flint, Michigan, and Pastor Butler organized 
Aryan world congresses at his Church of Jesus Christ, Christian at 
Hayden Lake, Idaho. The latter headquarters, Aryan Nations, also 
became a symbol for a separatist tendency that called for whites to 
establish a secessionist state, mostly, though not exclusively, placed in 
the northwestern United States. 
Christian Identity also pervaded other significant movements of these 
decades, notably the radical localist Posse Comitatus, which refused to 
accept any federal authority as constitutionally legitimate. The military 
impetus gave rise to armed compounds of Christian congregations at 
which were held survivalist training for Armageddon. 

Militarism was also a distinct feature of the second category of white 
religious nationalism that rose in the 1970s and 1980s. Not all white 
racialists were content with the Jewish identity claimed for Aryans.  
Christianity was held to be both alien and superstitious, negating 
the "law of nature" as well as logical reasoning. Ukrainian-born Ben 
Klassen founded the Church of the Creator (COTC) in 1973 in an effort 
to develop a creed based on the concept "race as religion." Creativity 
sharply ridiculed Identity doctrine, questioning why any sane white man 
would "break [his] neck to distort history" only to pose as "a descendant 
to such trash" as the ancient Hebrews. 
Klassen states that there is no historical evidence that the Ten Tribes of =

Israel ever existed and got lost, and if they did-good riddance! (12) 

With at times brilliant sarcasm and irony, Klassen confronts all "spook 
believing" creeds with the iconoclastic fervor of a nineteenth-century 
atheist. 
Christianity was described as a destructive force, created in an effort to =

reduce the warrior spirit in the nature of the white man. In Nature's 
Eternal Religion (1973), The While Man's Bible (1981) and RaHoWa: 
This Planet Is All Ours (1987), a kind of religious dimension was added 
to a -namely secular socio-Darwinism. Based on "nature's law," a vision 
is outlined of the white man as a realized Nietzschean superman. 

These anti-Christian teachings resulted in a falling out between COTC 
and Identity leaders and distanced Klassen from much of the Klan. 
Strongly opposed to the federal government, described as composed of 
race traitors in the pocket of conspiring Jews, the COTC organized the 
White Brigades at its to North Carolina, headquarters. Followers were 
invited for a couple of weeks at a time, learning "survival skills, martial=
 
arts and how to use [military] weapons." (13) 

Crativity split following its leader's suicide, but an attempt at reviving =
the 
COTC led by Pontifex Maximus Matt Hale came in 1996 from its 7ew 
headquarters in Illinois. (14) 

The 1990s is characterized by a further radicalization of white racialism. =

The removal of the Soviet bloc as a distracting enemy allowed a clearer 
focus on the United States' government as the force of evil. President 
George Bush's talk of a New World Order was interpreted as confirming 
the white racialists fears of a conspiracy to establish a one-world 
government. 

Irrespective of whether this was interpreted in Identity terms as the 
prophesied global reign of the anti-Christ, or understood in more secular 
terms, the conclusion that white Americans were to be subjugated was 
clear. Federal violence, symbolized by the 1992 killing at Ruby Ridge and 
the burning flames of Waco in 1993 left no doubt in believers' minds 
about what should be expected. (16) 

The paramilitary culture merged with mistrust of the government to give 
birth to the militia movement. Soon, different militias of various sizes 
and durations mushroomed in the United States, preparing to defend the 
remnants of American liberties. Though far from all of them harbor 
explicit white racialist world-views, many of them, like, for example, the =

Oklahoma White Militia, do. Mistrusting media, government agencies 
and other channels of public information, conspiracy theories 
experienced new heights, informing concerned citizens about various 
schemes ranging from secret federal concentration camps in which 
freedom lovers would be rounded up, to a satanic cabal involving 
presidents, international bankers, and congressmen, who met in secret 
for cannibalistic and necrophilic rites. (17) 

It seemed as if America as a white nation had irrevocably lost federal 
recognition. Whites appeared to be "the only people on the face of the 
earth that have no national state." (18) 

The separatist imperative was voiced by the Aryan Nations in their 
Declaration of Independence, which was "unanimously adopted" on 
March 12, 1996. "The United States and its `New World Order' has as 
one of its foremost purposes, the eradication of the white race and its 
culture." Its object is to establish "absolute [global] tyranny." "Appealin=
g 
to the supreme God of our folk" the representatives of the Aryan people 
therefore "declare that the Aryan people of America, are and of rights 
ought to be, a free and independent nation." (19) 

In the 1990s another white nationalist religious impetus came into the 
limelight: Odinism. With roots in the occult and/or pagan tendency of 
German National Socialism, early American Odinist writers like Else 
Christensen and the New Age-inspired pagan revival of the 1970s and 
1980s, Odinism made its breakthrough among America's white 
racialists. It attracted Christian Identity believers "who flirted with 
Identity because it was simply the only racial theology out there," (20) 
as well as anti-Christian Creativity adherents who felt the slogan "our 
race is our religion" did not carry far enough. "There must be something 
more to it." (21) 

Odinism, or Wotanism, is a concept used to denote a racially exclusive 
understanding of pre-Christian Norse religion, or Asatifi. Asatru is a 
polytheist tribal religion, more akin to Native American traditions than to=
 
monotheistic Christianity. Whereas the omnipotent and omniscient God 
of Christianity is of a nature fundamentally different from His creation, 
no such unbridgeable gulf separates the realm of the Gods and 
Goddesses in Asatru from this world. 

Asatru is a self-experienced spiritual path whereby man can reconnect 
with the divine within and with the animated universe in this world and 
beyond. (22) Through ritualization it is thought possible to connect with 
the spirits of the land, the ancestors and the guardian forces of nature. 
Leaders of the rites, the male gothi and female gythia, are not priests in =

the Christian sense and are invested with authority by the kindred 
(congregation) only if they prove themselves worthy in terms of 
knowledge and spiritual growth. Rather than being obeyed and/or 
prayed to, the Gods and Goddesses are invoked and invited as 
participants in the communal rituals, blots, that follow the yearly cycle o=
f 
nature. 

Many travelers on the Nordic Path in addition practice meditation, runic 
yoga or rune divination techniques. The polytheist perception of divinity 
is reflected in the Asatru belief in multiple souls and multiple destinies.=
 
Though many variations exist here, generally it is said that one soul 
goes to the abode of the dead while another soul departs to the abode 
of the yet unborn to await his next reincarnation or recurrence. Many 
Asatruers believe that this follows family lines, and here we touch on an 
aspect that opens up to racial speculation. Although "race" is a late 
concept in the history of mankind and was unknown to the ancient pre-
Christian Scandinavian cultures, its modem practitioners can hardly 
avoid its present-day reality. 

The Asatru revival has much to do with a search for roots and identity, 
in a similar manner in which many black Americans search for their 
African roots or Native Americans want to honor their traditions. This 
may or may not merge with racist ideas, and it should be emphasized 
that modem Asatru encompasses a broad spectrum of adherents, and 
far from all of them are inclined toward racialist ideologies. In its 
position on race, it ranges in a continuum from the radical racialist pole =

of Odinism to the anti-racist pole of many kindreds organized in the Ring 
of Troth network. 

In the middle are found two of the larger networks, the Asatru Folk 
Assembly and the Asatru Alliance, whose spokespersons try to distance 
themselves from either pole. Mike Murray of the Asatru Alliance 
describes it as the ethnic religion of Northern European peoples, (23) 
and Stephen McNallen of the Asatru Folk Assembly advances the 
concept of meta genetics as an avenue for embracing an ancestral faith 
without falling into the trap of negative racism. An analysis of the 
Asatru pagan revival in contemporary United States falls outside the 
scope of this study. (24) 

Representing more than a hundred congregations, or "kindreds," 
operating in the United States and abroad, the racialist Odinist tendency 
is propa-ated by groups and federations such as the Odinist Fellowship, 
Wotan's Folk and Rook. Dissatisfied with the multiracial reworking of the 
American "nation," Odinism aims at "reaching deep into the ancestral 
past" to reconnect with the "roots of our race" in order to redevelop a 
lost "folk consciousness. (25) 

Asserting that each race has a genetic pool of spiritual identity, Odinism =

believes that "all Aryans today retain an element of Wotan 
consciousness," a revival of which would liberate the white man. 

The Bruder Schweigen is a small closely united group of underground 
activists, known as the Order. 
Led by Robert Mathews, the Order initiated in the early 1980s an armed 
struggle for the liberation of the Aryan race. Following a series of an-
nored car robberies and the 1984 assassination of Alan Berg, a liberal 
Jewish talk radio host in Denver, a dramatic man hunt took place which 
culminated in Mathews' death and the subsequent capture of the 
militants. David Lane was sentenced to 190 years, but says that he does 
not regret anything: "I was only doing my duty and obeyed the will of 
the higher powers, just as I do now in the greater plan the Gods seem 
to have for me." During the years that have passed, the Order has 
grown in significance and David Lane is not infrequently referred to as 
the Mandela of the white revolution. 
  
The footnotes to the above are on my web site, and of course there 
also "The Black Muslim" type of racist ideas. I also pointed out on my 
web site the relationship between both black and white religious most 
racism today is of a religious (or "philosophical" as "lm" would claim) 
nature. There are no agknowledged scientists today that really can be 
said to be racist.

--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote:
> Hi M.
> 
> I don't think I mentioned anything about "racism." I was talking about 
> freedom. 
> 
> In New York, which is a melting pot for every, ethnic, religious, 
cultural, 
> racial, age, financial, occupational, sexual, etc., group imaginable, 
there 
> is (like everyplace else where such disparate groups come into close 
contact) 
> some degree of disagreement, hatred, fear, intolerance, jealousy, 
anger, 
> etc., that is bound to exist between them. However, that sort of thing 
cuts 
> both ways. And, no more blame can be placed on one side than the 
other. But, 
> such overt discriminations are not very evident in such a big city as 
NY, 
> since only a few people out of each group engage in such negative 
emotions or 
> actions. Also, I doubt, if you can limit such discriminations solely to =

the 
> US -- since not all humans everywhere are Theosophists -- or Sufis.  
> 
> As for the differences between being WHITE or BLACK in the US -- 
while it 
> still exists to a certain degree, it is very much less than before MLK Jr=
. 
> martyred himself in the cause of "human equality"... Not "peace," by 
the way 
> -- although, like Ghandi, he advocated and used peaceful resistance 
and 
> protest to attain freedom from oppression and suppression for black 
> Americans.  
> 
> Peace, in the other hand, is something that can only come about when 
all 
> people recognize their fundamental equality, and are capable of 
working 
> together to choose leaders who are capable of solving their inter-
group, 
> interracial, or international differences by peaceful negotiation or 
other 
> means -- short of war.  
> 
> The differences you speak of and relate to peace, are not 
between "Black and 
> White," but between former slave and freeborn, former farmer and 
city 
> dweller, uneducated and educated, pauper and wealthy, ruled and 
rulers, male 
> and female, hetero and homosexual, and hundreds of other major 
and minor 
> separations and resultant discriminations that people become 
conditioned to 
> by their parents, schooling, peers, etc. -- while not learning how to 
think 
> for themselves.
> 
> This separative tendency is a fundamental problem of human nature 
based on 
> "ignorance" -- which cannot be changed by proselytizing, preaching, 
edict, or 
> government laws, rules and regulations -- but only by "self realization" =

> gained by "self determined and self devised study and effort." Is that 
why 
> theosophist's know the futility of engaging in politics? And why they 
also 
> know that the only way for humanity to achieve real equality and real 
peace 
> is to simply practice it themselves -- while minding their own business 
and 
> not pointing fingers at others? 
> 
> As for "leg pulling" I'm glad you recognize (and enjoy) a good joke (on 
you 
> ;-) when you hear it.  
> 
> LHM <?:-)> (picture of a smiling bearded man wearing a French 
beret)
> "Keep on Smiling" 
> (as sung by Louis Armstrong -- is my theme song) 
> 
> ---------------------------
> In a message dated 11/18/02 11:23:13 AM, global-theosophy@a... 
writes:
> 
> >Hi all of you,
> >
> >I laugh.
> >And Yes Leon - I still have my legs, they are not gone, not yet that is!=

> >
> >So no racism in USA ?
> >No differences between being WHITE and BLACK as in 1968, when 
Martin Luther
> >King Jr. did
> >his best to make peace on this Planet ?
> >
> >Really....?
> >
> >from
> >M. Sufilight with no smiles...but a happy face...
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <leonmaurer@a...>
> >To: <theos-talk@y...>
> >Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:11 PM
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians
> >
> >
> >> Hi M.
> >>
> >> I hope you know when your leg is being pulled. :-)
> >>
> >> If you did, you wouldn't have a happy smile... You'd be laughing 
out loud.
> >>
> >> In any event, I agree with Steve -- at least about the things he said
> >> about freedom and Dopey Dubya.
> >>
> >> But, seriously, the one thing you should know is; The American 
people (who
> >> don't own the global businesses) and the people who run this 
country and
> >> make all the foreign affairs decisions, are birds of a different color=
.
> >>
> >> So, when you condemn the "US" imperialism, don't blame all 
us "Americans"
> >> (although some of us may have voted, for one reason or another, 
for the
> >> assholes at the top who push the buttons. ;-) The rest of us are 
either
> >> "indigenous Americans," or a mixed bag of immigrants and their 
descendants,
> >> who are about as free as they want to be in their local State and 
City
> >> communities (each, with their own separate local laws, rules and 
> regulations)
> >> -- some of which have probably as many (or less), as ethnically 
pure (or
> >> diverse), as prejudiced (or unprejudiced), as free (or unfree) 
people
> >> as in your own country... (And, everything in-between.)
> >>
> >> LHM
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 11/15/02 11:44:07 AM, global-theosophy@a...
> >writes:
> >>
> >> >HI Steve and all of you,
> >> >
> >> >Thanks Steve that helped a lot !
> >> >Maybe more than you would know.
> >> >
> >> >from
> >> >M. Sufilight with a happy smile...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "Steve Stubbs" <stevestubbs@y...>
> >> >To: <theos-talk@y...>
> >> >Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:33 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Status of Indigenous Australians
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-> No 
Bart.
> >> >> > We are just not going to fall on our knees in front of one 
single
> >-
> >> >> extremly
> >> >> > nationalistic - country which
> >> >> > say they follow the word "freedom" as their nickname - 
while they
> >> >> do the
> >> >> > opposite !
> >> >>
> >> >> Actually, what you think is freedom is another of Bush's
> >> >> mispronunciations. Just as he cannot pronounce nuclear or 
Iraq
> >> >> correctly he cannot pronounce oil correctly. Every time Bush 
says
> >he
> >> >> wants to go to war with Iraq over oil, it sounds like he is saying
> >he
> >> >> wants to go to war over freedom. He is not a liar. Just
> >> >> inarticulate. He needs to resign and take a public speaking 
course.
> >> >> Or just resign and go away, one of the two.
> >> >>
> >> >> > USA take more prisoners each year than for instance any of 
the
> >> >> > EU-countries - looking at percentages.
> >> >>
> >> >> Absolutely true. That is the side effect of the so-called war on
> >> >> drugs, which was initially well intentioned and which makes 
sense
> >on
> >> >> the face of it, but which has evolved into a job corps for out of
> >> >> work prison officials and cops. The problem is, if the laws 
were
> >> >> reformed, all those people would be put on the unemployment 
line.
> > It
> >> >> is a classic problem which has faced all societies, in which a 
vested
> >> >> interest is created snd people fight like hell to keep it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Interestingly, this is a view shared by people across the 
political
> >> >> spectrum, from William F Buckley to his counterparts of the 
left.
> >> >>
> >> >> > And what about the arab countries or India ?
> >> >>
> >> >> They are all far, far freer than the United States, no doubt 
about
> >> >> it. Every Arab or Indian you speak to says they really miss 
that.
> >> >> Some of us hope we can catch up someday.
> >> >>
> >> >> > And of course Bart will tell me, that the prisoners in the jails
> >of
> >> >> USA are
> >> >> > allowed "FREE MIXING".
> >> >>
> >> >> Nonsense, total nonsense. Bart is a nice guy, but if he defends
> >> >> Israel he will defend anything. Except the rights of 
Palestinians.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Have you ever visited one of the jails in that particular 
country
> >?
> >> >>
> >> >> I will answer on his behalf. He has never even driven past 
one.
> >> >>
> >> >> > And I am not an anti-american, but I do believe, that peace 
is
> >> >> important.
> >> >> > Germany wants peace, but what does USA want ?
> >> >>
> >> >> Listen to George Bush's speeches some time when you need 
help going
> >> >> to sleep. He wants war and he means to get it. Now that he 
has a
> >> >> rubber stamp parliament it looks as if another war is inevitable.
> >> >> The best we can hope for is that it is short and that he does 
not
> >get
> >> >> beaten too badly.
> >> >>
> >> >> You don't need an airline ticket Morten. You already have an
> >> >> accurate view of the situation.
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>