Theos-Talk Archives (January 2003 Message tt00013)

RESPONSE FROM BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI AT >>>
PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, I AM NOT SHOUTING...

Message 10142 
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@a...> 
Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 12:16 pm
Subject: Re: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and 
Science News" website




I am back - all of you,

My views are given in the below:
Just read the below from D. Caldwell.
And I have to say, that if B. A. Goswami support the following link, -
then - the issue of "Dugpaship" comes to my mind. Truth is truth.
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html

On what "Dugpas" are - try this:
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/occult.htm (Blavatsky article)
and this
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/dn-dz.htm (COLLATION OF 
THEOSOPHICAL
GLOSSARIES)


>>>HERE ARE SOME OF THE DUGPA REFERENCES MENTIONED ABOVE

One could even dispense with any lofty standard of morality. In the 
last case, of course, ten to one the student would blossom into a 
very decent kind of sorcerer, and tumble down headlong into black 
magic. But what can this matter? The Voodoos and the Dugpas eat, 
drink and are merry over heca-tombs of victims of their infernal 
arts. And so do the amiable gentlemen vivisectionists and the diploma-
ed "Hypnotizers" of the Faculties of Medicine; tube only difference 
between the two classes being that the Voodoos and Dugpas are 
conscious, and the Charcot-Richet crew unconscious, Sorcerers. Thus, 
since both have to reap the fruits of their labours and achievements 
in the black art, the Western practitioners should not have the 
punishment and reputation without the profits and enjoyments they may 
get therefrom. For we say it again, hypnotism and vivisection as 
practiced in such schools, are schools, are Sorcery pure and simple, 
minus a knowledge that the Voodoos and Dugpas enjoy, and which no 
Charcot-Richet can procure for himself in fifty years of hard study 
and experimental observation. Let then those who will dabble in 
magic, whether they understand its nature or not, but who find the 
rules imposed upon students too hard, and who, therefore lay Atma-
Vidya or Occultism aside--go without it. Let them become magicians by 
all means, even though they do become Voodoos and Dugpas for the next 
ten incarnations. 

**********************************************************************
**********************************************************************
**********************

TG Dugpas (Tib.). Lit., "Red Caps," a sect in Tibet. Before the 
advent of Tsong-ka-pa in the fourteenth century, the Tibetans, whose 
Buddhism had deteriorated and been dreadfully adulterated with the 
tenets of the old Bhon religion, -- were all Dugpas. From that 
century, however, and after the rigid laws imposed upon the Gelukpas 
(yellow caps) and the general reform and purification of Buddhism (or 
Lamaism), the Dugpas have given themselves over more than ever to 
sorcery, immorality, and drunkenness. Since then the word Dugpa has 
become a synonym of "sorcerer", "adept of black magic" and everything 
vile. There are few, if any, Dugpas in Eastern Tibet, but they 
congregate in Bhutan, Sikkim, and the borderlands generally. 
Europeans not being permitted to penetrate further than those 
borders, the Orientalists never having studied Buddho-Lamaism in 
Tibet proper, but judging of it on hearsay and from what Cosmo di 
Koros, Schlagintweit, and a few others have learnt of it from Dugpas, 
confuse both religions and bring then) under one head. They thus give 
out to the public pure Dugpaism instead of Buddho-Lamaism. In short 
Northern Buddhism in its purified, metaphysical form is almost 
entirely unknown. 
VS dread Dad-Dugpa clan (III 11) [[p. 51]] The Bhons or Dugpas, the 
sect of the "Red Caps," are regarded as the most versed in sorcery. 
They inhabit Western and little Tibet and Bhutan. They are all 
Tantrikas. It is quite ridiculous to find Orientalists who have 
visited the borderlands of Tibet, such as Schlagintweit and others, 
confusing the rites and disgusting practices of these with the 
religious beliefs of the Eastern Lamas, the "Yellow Caps," and their 
Narjols or holy men. The following is an instance. 

FY Dugpas, the "Red Caps," evil magicians, belonging to the left-hand 
path of occultism, so called in Tibet. 

WG Dugpa (Thibetan), a sorcerer or "red-cap" of Bhootan. (See 
Gelupa.) 

SD INDEX Dugpa(s) (Tib). See also Sorcerers 

power of II 221n 
swastika on idols of II 586 

>>>MR OLESON, WOULD YOU KINDLY EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU HAVE MENTIONED 
ME IN THE CONTEXT OF DUGPA AS DEFINED ABOVE ? 

>>>I HAVE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED MY RELIGIOUS AFFILIATIONS AND LINEAGE, 
AND HAVE PROVIDED EVIDENCE OF THE SAME. (SEE MY AFFILIATION WITH THE 
WORLD VAISHNAVA ASSOCIATION.) I AM A RESPECTED SANNYASI OF THE 
BRAHMA-MADHVA GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY 
SATTVIC (HOLY, ASCETIC OR PIETISTIC) TRADITION. IF YOU DO NOT KNOW 
WHAT THAT MEANS, ALLOW ME TO TELL YOU. I AM STRICTLY CELIBATE AND 
CHASTE AND HAVE NOT EATEN ANY FLESH INCLUDING FOWL, FISH OR EGGS FOR 
OVER 30 YEARS. I PRACTICE NO MAGIC OR ANIMAL SACRIFICES. NOT ONLY 
AM I NOT A DRUNK. BUT FOR OVER 30 YEARS I HAVE NOT BEEN A DRINKER OF 
ALCOHOL OR EVEN COLA OR COFFEE. I HAVE NOT SMOKED TOBACCO, MARIJUANA 
OR TAKEN ANY OTHER KINDS OF INTOXICANTS. THUS I PRACTICE THE SATTVIC 
VOWS OF AHIMSA (NON VIOLENCE) , DHIRA (SOBRIETY), SATYA (TRUTH) AND 
BRAHMACARYA (CHASTITY, PLUS MANY OTHER VOWS, SUCH AS VOLUNTARY 
SIMPLICITY ('POVERTY'), CONTROL OF AND PURITY OF SPEACH, DEDICATION 
TO THE MENIAL PHYSICAL SERVICE TO OTHERS, DAILY SHASTRIC STUDY, 
OFFERING ALL MY 'MERIT' FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHERS, AND A MINIMUM OF 
6 HOURS OF INTERCESSORY PRAYER A DAY. 

>>>THIS HARDLY QUALIFIES ME TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE LEFT-HAND 
TANTRIKA DUGPA SECT. IN FACT I HAVE SPENT MY LIFE OPPOSING THE EVILS 
OF SUCH TAMASIC RELIGIONS, AND HAVE ACTUALLY RESCUED, BY THE GRACE OF 
GOD, SOME POOR SOULS FROM THE BONDAGE OF FLESH EATING, INTOXICATION, 
ILLICIT SEX AND LYING. 


I quote this:
"Editor: Since the group of 170 scholars from the various neo-
theosophical
groups and organisations has yielded so few responses that were able 
to
match the scholarship of BA G, I have invited Eric Wynants (an expert 
on
the history of esoteric movements worldwide) and an Indologist 
specialized
in Buddhism who will due to his academic position participate under 
the name
Kela. "
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html

My Sufilight answer:
Well, but B. A. Goswami has as I understand it - more than one time 
here at
Theos-Talk stated, that debates with non-scholars are out of the 
question.
Right ?

>>> WHAT IS THIS A REFERENCE TO ? I WILL 'DEBATE' ANYONE ANYTIME IF 
THERE SEEMS TO BE ENOUGH VALUE IN IT. I HAVE ONLY POSTED MY 
CREDENTIALS HERE SO THAT OTHERS MAY KNOW 'WHERE I AM COMING FROM'. 
I AM FROM THE SCHOOL THAT SAYS ONE'S TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION IS 
IMPORTANT. WHILE IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT DANIEL IS AN EXPERT ON 
THEOSOPHY, DUE TO HIS WELL-KNOWN POSITION, NO ONE HERE KNEW WHAT MY 
QUALIFICATION WAS TO SPEAK ON THE VEDAS OR PURANAS IN RELATION TO THE 
WRITINGS OF HPB AND HER MAHATMAS. SO I PROVIDE MY INFORMATION. 

>>>I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE EDITOR(S) OF THE ESOTERIC NEWS SITE, AND 
AM UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO SPEAK FOR OR IDENTIFY OR DEFEND HIM, HER OR 
THEM.

>>>I AM NOT THEM OR RELATED TO THEM IN ANY WAY. I AM MERELY A PERSON 
WHO SENT SOME LETTERS TO THE SITE, IN RESPONSE TO A NUMBER OF THE 
POSTINGS THERE. 

>>>I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE SITE'S EDITORS' MOTIVES HAVE BEEN OR ARE. 
I AM SIMPLY CONTRIBUTING MY OPINIONS ON A NUMBER OF SUBJECTS TO SOME 
PUBLIC EXCHANGES.

>>>WHEN I INITIALLY WROTE TO THE ESOTERIC NEWS SITE I GAVE BLANKET 
PERMISSION TO USE ANY INFORMATION FROM MY LETTERS. THAT IS HOW SOME 
OF MY WRITINGS ENDED UP HERE. WHEN I WAS INFORMED ABOUT THIS SITE, I 
CAME HERE AND IDENTIFIED MYSELF. AS A RESULT, I WAS ACCUSED OF LYING 
ABOUT MY IDENTITY AND BEING SOMEONE ELSE. TWICE MY GALVA BIOGRAPHY 
AND ARTICLE LINK HAS BEEN POSTED HERE, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 
ANYTHING ON THIS SITE. INSTEAD OF BEING OFFENED THAT THE QUESTION OF 
MY GENDER WAS INTRODUCED HERE, I SIMPLY TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH 
THE READERS HERE ABOUT THE REALITY AND SUFFERINGS OF SEX AND GENDER 
DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THEN I DID NOT RAISE THE ISSUE OF HPB BEING 
AN "HERMAPHRODITE". I VOICED MY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE I 
WAS ASKED IT. THEN I WAS ASSOCIATED (BY CONTEXT OF STATEMENT) WITH 
THE CATHOLIC AND HINDU MAL-TREATMENT OF WOMEN, AND NOW I HAVE AGAIN 
BEEN ASSOCIATED IN YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT WITH SOMETHING THAT I HAVE 
SPENT A LIFETIME BEING OPPOSED TO. I AM OPPOSED TO SEXISM AND ALL 
THE EVILS OF LEFT-HAND TANTRISM. 

>>>I HAVE LIVED A LIFE OF COMMITTMENT TO HOLINESS AND HUMBLE SERVICE 
TO OTHERS. HOW CAN ONE WHO HAS VOWED THEIR SOUL FOR THE SALVATION 
OF THE "LAST HUNGRY GHOST" IN THE UNIVERSE BE MOTIVATED BY HATE FOR 
ANY BEING ? IT SEEMS THAT YOU HAVE ASSUMED THAT I HATE HPB, BECAUSE 
I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT HER LACK OF HONESTY. IT IS OUT OF LOVE THAT I 
HAVE TAKEN THE CONSIDERABLE EFFORT TO WRITE ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE 
SUBJECT OF HPB AND THEOSOPHY. TO HAVE MY MOTIVES SO ATTACKED HERE, 
SAYS SOMETHING VERY SAD ABOUT THE ATTACKERS. 

>>>I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONE ELSE'S MOTIVES, ONLY FOR MY OWN, 
AND MY MOTIVE HERE HAS BEEN ONE OF LOVE. 

>>>WISHING YOU ALL WELL, AND WEARY OF BEING ABUSED HERE, 

>>>SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI,

>>>BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI

So what is this above socalled "Editor"s motives ?
I think that this Editor is wrong and lies.

And this one too:
Quoting from the site:
"BA G: The Masters as extra-"ordinary" beings is asserted here. One 
could
reject the fictitious claims made for the Masters and still accept 
that in
mortal human terms, HPB's human prototypes for the Masters WERE
extra-ordinary people. They were uniquely privileged and intelligent 
persons
strategically located in time and place to create a unique synthesis 
of some
Eastern and Western thought systems. The problem is not in 
acknowledging the
giftedness of HPB and her Masters, it is in being required to accept 
the
whole fictional package that they have been wrapped in. The problem 
is the
basic lack of honesty and forth-rightness that pervades the entire
Theosophical enterprise. However this can be understood as a pathology
common to all secret societies and "occult" brotherhoods that normally
function under the cover of various forms of purposeful obscuration 
and
deceit.

Internal discussion of falsified Mahatma Letters runs throughout the 
early
Theosophical Society documents. A lot of expert sophistry and word-
jugglery
is used to euphemize the obvious lying, cheating and deception that 
was
going on in the organization. "
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/respbag.html

My Sufilight answer:
None is required to accept anything as stated above. But one is 
certainly
encouraged to THINK or something like that. The use of the 
word "required"
in the above is clearly false and NOT Theosophical teaching.
If the "wrapping of the package" is fictional or not, or partly so is 
of
less importance; - i.e. misunderstandings can always occur on a 
dualistic
level. The core teachings of Theosophy is the key to it all.
Learn to use the "7 keys" as mentioned by Blavatsky - and seek avoid 
oneway
dead-letter thinking and reading.

And a distastefull quote still runs the frontpage of an almost similar
website -
at http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/%7Emuehleb9/ :
"This expose begins with one of the most totalizing of modern myths:
Theosophy. Privileged spokespersons present themselves as the sole
legitimate conduits of ancient wisdom. Contenders are ruthlessly 
fought with
an array of verbal arguments as well as practical measures."

The above is a clear lie. And there is no need to clarify that !



Martin Luther King Jr. two excerpts:

A:
"I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I 
think this
is at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate 
only
intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit 
you and
you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, 
that
goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must 
have a
little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the 
person
who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the
tragedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the
existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have 
religion
enough and morality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very
structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love."

Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 
November 1957
at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text)

B:
"Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our
loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties 
must
transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this 
means we
must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no 
nation
can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have 
war in
this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either 
learn to
live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as 
fools."

Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 
December 1967
at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga.

Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-)


C:
Attraction of Celebrities
A man who is being delivered frim the danger of a fierce lion deos not
object, wheather this service is performed by an unknown or by an
illustrious individual. Why, therefore, do people seek knowledge from
celebrities ?

D:
I think it was the sufi El-Ghazali (d.1111) who said something like 
the
following:
The disticntion between opinion and knowledge is something, which can 
easily
be lost. When this happens,
it is incumbent upon those who know the difference to make it plain 
as far
as they are able.
This habit of confusing opinion with knowledge is almost a epidemic 
disease
these days.
Well, that was years ago, but this issue seems to be a disease even 
today.

E:
It is allright that some people have authorities. But they have to be
constructive. If the authority is
destructive, then I won't be good and have to be stopped.
I could ask if any has an opinion on wheather any authorities today 
are good
or bad, and I would probably get a lot of hands.
But if I ask about if any have the needed spiritual knowledge to 
judged
wheather it is true, - I bet near all the hands will fall down - if 
the
truth was to be presented.


Please rethink your positions...


from
M. sufilight with peace...peace...peace...





----- Original Message -----
From: <info@b...>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:07 PM
Subject: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and 
Science
News" website


> Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami,
>
> Since you are announcing on Theos-Talk an article about HPB 
published
> on the "Esoteric and Science News" website at
> <http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/> ,
> can you tell us who is the CURRENT editor of that website?
>
> In early to mid Nov. 2002, the editor of that site was still Brian
> Muehlebach, who had mysteriously taken over the editorship from
> Brigitte Muehlegger in Aug. 2002.
>
> But soon after Eldon Tucker "booted" Brian from Theos-Talk in the
> latter part of Nov., Brian's name as editor disappeared COMPLETELY
> from that website and Raphael Vishanu (Gregory Tillett should
> remember that name) became the editor.
>
> Go to the very bottom of the page at
> <http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/>
> and see the link to "Editor". This link goes to
> http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pic.html
>
> A week ago this link gave pictures apparently of R.V. Now the link
> is dead. But notice the pictures and the caption right above
> this "Editor" link. The caption reads:
>
> "This morning yours editor went out at six in the morning Dec. 24,
> 2002, and while my two children were putting rice in the monk's 
bowls
> that they carry each morning from/to their monasteries, I took a few
> pictures for you. This is near the border of Burma/Thailand where we
> live surrounded by more than 100 acres of rice field (that are 
worked
> entirely by hand). Picture to the left is when the light was just
> rising."
>
> Thailand??
>
> Also I do not as of this morning see Raphael Vishanu's name listed 
as
> editor anywhere on this homepage. In December his name as editor was
> on the homepage of the website.
>
> OBTW, I see a "mirror" site of "Esoteric and Science News" at:
>
> http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/
>
> Daniel
>
>