Theos-Talk Archives (March 2003 Message tt00027)

In a message dated 02/22/03 8:21:08 PM, lyris-admin@list.vnet.net writes:

PPS I'm wondering what Leon might think about that paragraph that
starts with <<Science uses mathematical models to model "reality" 
but as an engineer I was taught at the University of 
Maryland way back in the 60s that ...>>

Since my professors told me the same thing when I was an engineering student 
at Ga Tech way back in the 40s, I fully agree with Gerald about chaos when 
seen from the point of view of the physics of the metric universe. But, 
since chaos became a serious scientific study during the 70-80s and ended up 
as the science of simplicity/complexity (which forms, in conjunction with 
multidimensional fractal and topological mathematics, the basis of 
Superstring/M-brane theories) -- a realization has came about that within 
chaos there is a fundamental order, just as there is order within a 
fundamental chaos. As HPB said the beginning of phenomenal space is, "a chaos 
to the eye but an order to the intuitive mind." 

This is because, between the zero-point and the first manifest unit of 
measurement or first relative orderly motion in conditioned space -- e.g., 
the first triple cycle Monad of the initial "light" ray (analogous to a 
photon particle, or "quanta") -- there is a gap, or void, ("vacuum" in 
scientific terms). But that void -- being the origin of both the zero-point 
force or spinergy that emanated that centrifugal field forming the initial 
"positive" spirtual light particle or spiritual monad, as well as the equal 
and opposite centripetal force field that counterbalances it (This is 
analogous to the "negative" fundamental particle or what science today calls 
"dark Matter") cannot be non existent, or "nothing" -- since, it also 
represents "Absolute space" -- out of which all seven fields of consciousness 
emanate, including our physical space-time. 

Therefore, it is, in essence, both one and many, zero and one, empty and 
full... And thus, a complete chaos of zero-point energy that must 
continually oscillate randomly between those opposite extremes... While only 
a small part of it becomes the infinitude of chaotic photonic "light" monads 
-- that steps down through the 7-fold coadunate but not consubstantial fields 
of metaphysical space and coagulates or precipitates into our physical 
universe.

These strings or loops of randomly pulsating energy of the void continuously 
cross through the zero-point between them to maintain perfect balance or 
harmony... With the zero-points always remaining stationary while the energy 
around it is always in motion. This perpetual motion, empowered by the 
infinite spinergy of the zero-point, can be directed (orderly) or random 
(chaotic) depending on the forces adjacent to it that are either attractive 
or repulsive, positive or negative. But, they always maintain an average 
balanced neutrality. Much like the random motions of gas molecules that 
balance out to a level temperature and pressure. 

We could, therefore, in theosophical terms, call that chaos of the void, 
"Sattva" -- since it is, while continually fluctuating, in average harmonious 
balance between creation and destruction. It follows that the activity of the 
positive and negative zero-point energy could be considered as "Rajas," and 
the static zero-point itself as "Tamas." Thus HPB speaks of the Absolute 
rootless root as being in eternal abstract (unformed) motion. That motion 
can be represented as either the chaotic motion of the void or the orderly 
spin motion of the zero-point that emanates the cyclic fields that involve in 
orderly patterns which are constantly subject to the disorder of the randomly 
fluctuating energy of the void or vacuum spaces between the particles. This 
"indeterminacy," is what forces all models to be only analogs of the actual 
reality, since the model to be pictured or diagrammed is limited by the 
particular order forced on it by the medium. 

Thusn, a 2-dimensional drawing can never perfectly represent a three or more 
dimensional reality. (But, from it we can build a perfectly representative 
3D model.) However, once we go beyond 3-dimensions, or have to consider the 
random fluctuations of space or indeterminacy of position related to 
momentum, due to the zero-points being coadunate on all the extra hyperspace 
dimensions -- we can only make approximate mathematical or graphical models 
that only analogously or symbolically represent the actual reality 

As for the difference between order and chaos in the Blavatsky model, we have 
to look at it from several different points of view. On the highest 
spiritual planes, the rules of field formation and their involution are not 
the same as on the physical plane. Nor are they the same on the Cosmic 
planes... Although, while at either extremes, the formational processes are 
analogous, the actual physical forms can never perfectly match the ideal 
mental forms or models. The closer we approach to the Absolute zero-point, 
the frequency of the energy waves increase until they approach infinite (in 
the spinergy of the zero-point). But, at the first stage of spiritual 
emanation and expansion from the primal zero (laya)-point, the fields are so 
large and the wavelengths so long that the orderly aspect, which depends 
solely on the laws of cycles, predominates. At the lowest levels, or finite 
zero-points and their denser fields, we see the laws of probability and 
indeterminacy begin to dominate -- since, at such shorter distances, the 
forces operate at much faster frequencies and shorter wave lengths, and begin 
to interact far more complexly with each other. 

Thus, on this lowest metric level, the zero point forces of chaos have a 
greater probability of effecting the measurable energies of the particles 
they surround and interpenetrate. HPB explained this very thoroughly in the 
SD. However, before we can understand the nature of the chaos, we must 
understand the order of the initial emanation of the higher consciousness 
(the Triple Crown, the Builders, the Dhyan Chohans, the Adi Buddha's, etc., 
that start out as pure consciousness, clear mind, and subtle body) on the i
nitial first, second, and ultimately third Logos that expresses our visible 
Cosmos. This is why when we meditate and approach the calmness necessary to 
experience the higher levels of consciousness, both our breathing and our 
brain waves must slow down considerably. To reach the highest spiritual 
consciousness these vibrations would have to be reduced to almost zero. And, 
in contrast, if we need to be most effective in action on the physical plane 
we have to increase those cycles accordingly. Thus, high magic, requiring 
control of mind over matter through an extreme concentration of will, would 
require speeding up of those cycles to even higher energy levels -- 
approaching that of the smallest quantum level particles.

As the Monads descend out of the initial simplicity (as involved spherical 
fields) passing through the various 7, 10, 14 fold, etc., planes of 
consciousness, and grow smaller and increase in complexity -- and as these 
particles and forms begin to collide with and act on each other -- the vast 
world of probabilities and indeterminacy comes into existence as our physical 
world. This also agrees with the ideas of different levels of Maya, and 
therefore different operations of the laws of karma on the different planes 
of consciousness. Another cause of such indeterminacy and the random actions 
of chaos is the reverse karma due to the opposing or contrary free will 
actions of the multitudes of separate, individualized consciousness that 
appear as the universe grows greater in complexity. This is why it's so 
difficult to predict the future, especially as the result of our own actions, 
since the further out we try to go, the increasing random actions of opposing 
wills and forces set up by others begin to blur the picture. 

We also might assume that, since the Absolute is infinite in its potential 
probabilities of action, there is the possibility of infinite universes -- of 
which this is only one -- and therefore would have a limited lifetime before 
all its initially expressed or conditioned energies run down -- due to the 
nature of the "friction's" (entropy) generated by its accumulated karma 
(influenced by the chaotic randomness of independent individual will). 

Thus, as Gerald said, there could be no real "eternity" for those individual 
entities. Although, as I see it, the Absolute being unlimited, there would 
have to be infinite sets of infinities that make up the infinite whole. 
Therefore, each such existence in any one universe -- being infinitely 
divisible in its own zero-point space-time metrics -- could be considered as 
an eternity. HPB also pointed this out clearly. 

In any event, I think its important not to think of either the self as being 
infinite or non infinite (as, the Buddha said, "It's neither this nor that") 
-- since that would divert our attention from being in the NOW or present, 
which is both conditioned and unconditioned in each cycle of time. On the 
other hand, since the zero-point, along with its spinergy, is the root of 
both consciousness and matter, and since the zero-point always is, was and 
will be both one and many -- then, how can we say that any zero-point of 
individual consciousness can ever disappear from potential existence? As HPB 
implied, if one believes the self in not eternal then it could very well be 
so. But, what if one believes just the opposite? Wouldn't this alternative 
possibility be consistent with the noncommittal statement of the Buddha? If 
the Absolute is both everything and nothing, the only limits it could have is 
what we think it has. So, if we know we are a ray of its eternal zero-point 
spinergy, once we have reached "enlightenment" and experienced it for 
ourselves, then how can we not be eternal ? 

Therefore, I think the Buddha intentionally limited his teaching to this 
plane of existence, and consequently was justified in teaching Anatta 
(limited, however, to how far in time our individual perception of separate 
self could extend through the entire matrix of multidimensional space). For 
example, being solar beings, our consciousness of individuality as a self 
conscious ray of the Solar light could very well end at the extinction of the 
life forces of Sol, which would have had to go through all its rounds before 
its death. But that could be after some of us (having forsaken Nirvana for 
the Bodhisattva life) have experienced all the rounds and races of Earth as 
well as those of Venus and Mercury before joining with the other "lives" of 
the Sun itself for it's rounds, etc. Talk about a stretch of mind... If we 
could retain our individual self consciousness that far, we could take this 
kind of visualization out to the galactic consciousness and eventually the 
Cosmic consciousness without losing our individual awareness of self. (That 
is if we believe in it firmly enough. :-) In other words, when I (or you) 
become one with the infinite consciousness of the all, then I am (you are) 
that all. But, why think about that now? Most of us still have a few more 
lifetimes to go before we achieve self realization or enlightenment and can 
make such a leap. So, for the ordinary sadhu, Buddha was right to refuse to 
say whether the self was eternal or not. 

However, since Sol (Sun) would retain the accumulated returning energies, and 
their experiential patterns of knowledge and wisdom in his zero-laya point 
for another solar round, depending on the energy we compacted in our 
individual Earth rounds and races, we could still retain our individuality in 
the next solar round, and later in the galactic rounds, then the Cosmic 
rounds, and even further -- considering the possibilities of an "infinite 
Absolute space." Therefore, even Brahma and Parabrahm would have to be 
subject to rebirth -- in accord with the fundamental and immutable laws of 
karma (cycles). Thus, Buddha, as Adi Buddha, ad infinitum would be eternal. 
Therefore, I think Buddha was speaking to the ordinary people many of whom 
couldn't hope to attain Buddhahood before the end of this Manvantara. 

Did your ever think that, since everything that goes out must come in, we 
could actual ride our self back to the Sun on the reflected solar ray that 
comes straight in and hits our center of spiritual self consciousness? And 
if that ray was of the highest spiritual frequency (that the Earth was 
transparent to) it wouldn't matter if the we were on the Earth's night side. 
(How's that for the kinda speculation I like to play with, Mauri? :-) Could 
that be what happens when we are in deep sleep and restore the life energy 
that we deplete every day before going to sleep? 

As for a model being limited to the level on which it symbolizes, Gerald is 
also correct. But, that holds primarily for the physical world we can measure 
and picture in two or three dimensions. 

However, it is relatively easy (from a point of view in conditioned 
space-time) to reverse engineer the Universe and intuitively imagine a 
multidimensional, field within field within field model (as a literal 
blueprint) that considers the zero-point of origin of each plane (spiritual, 
mental, astral, physical) as having the same fundamental characteristics -- 
since they all have their fundamental energy compacted in the form of angular 
momentum (or circular spin) and they all must have a common center of 
Absolute emptiness. As HPB said, they are "coadunate but not 
consubstantial." The only thing we cannot imagine would be the Absolute 
abstract space within which these elements rest. Thus, we can only model the 
roots and branches, but not the rootless root that underlies and supports 
them.

This what I've done with my ABC model -- which, because it is 
multidimensional, can only be visualized geometrically as bubbles within 
bubbles, within bubbles, etc. This works, because the zero points and the 
repetitive 3- cycle flow of circular lines of energy emanating from a 
rotating point can take us to as many levels of involution we want to go -- 
when we imagine the bubbles as being perfectly transparent. And, since the 
bubbles have to line up in left-right symmetry in three dimensions (like the 
chakras) -- a simple cross section slice down the center axis enables one to 
draw the entire complex system on a two dimensional sheet. See: 
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html 

Thus, the initial formation of the first triple cycle monad emanating from 
that circular spinergy on the highest infinite plane imaginable would have to 
follow the absolute law of cycles (harmonics) that contains within it the 
absolute law of karma (action-reaction). Therefore, the aspect of rounds on 
that highest level would be very orderly. (Picture the orderliness in the 
tone and chord harmonics of rhythmic music.) 
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif

The same model would then apply to all subsequent involution's until the 
physical plane is reached -- while gradually adding the increasing influence 
of chaos energy on the surrounding formed energy fields, due to the 
increasing densities, complexities, numbers, forms, etc., interacting with 
each other with varying degrees of individual will. Thus, the rounds would 
be less orderly as we approach closer to the physical plane. 

NOTE: Since they are only tools for the imagination and intuition, the 
spherical cross section diagrams can only symbolize the fields of 
consciousness insofar as we can graphically imagine up to three dimensional 
images in our mind-field. While the fields are all inside one another 
(coadunate but not consubstantial) and each is spherical in their own right, 
they are each in a different dimension of hyperspace that is beyond our 
visual imagination... And, therefore, their actual relationship to each other 
can only be intuited. Such diagrams, while representing the actual reality, 
are NOT to be taken literally (or visually) -- except in the one case where 
the points between the fields correspond with the chakras on the physical 
plane, while representing the magnetic or prana energies of the fields 
surrounding them.

LHM
http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.htm

Gerald wrote: <<Science uses mathematical models to model "reality" 
but as an engineer I was taught at the University of 
Maryland way back in the 60s that none of the pretty 
equations of science works exactly in the "real world." 
Measurement is an inexact process, and if you don't 
round off when measuring, you will get a different 
measurement every time you make an observation. 
Scientific equations tend to result in averages or norms. 
Make enough measurements of acceleration and mass,
and sooner or later force will equal average mass times
average acceleration. Why? We now know that such 
inherent imprecision is due to chaos. The mathematical 
equations of science generally do not take into 
consideration the Chaos Factor, which is often so small 
that it can be ignored anyway, but is always there. Thus 
order is always accompanied by chaos. Today many 
equations include this chaos factor, and science no longer 
tries to ignore it. Mathematical equations are nothing 
more than models, and are called mathematical models. 
Mathematical equations model relationships. As
Theosophists, if we want to model our manvantaric 
universe we need to include chaos as an inherent aspect. 
Blavatsky did not do this, and her model addresses only 
the order aspect. When you include the chaos factor, we 
discover things like her human lifewave is a statistical 
average, her root races and rounds are statistical 
averages, and so on. Exceptions abound, and "laws" have 
limits and this is all due to adding chaos into the model. 
And unless we address maya, we will tend to think that 
the entire manvantaric universe has a reality that it doesn't 
actually have. This is due to the superimposition by 
manas of reality onto what appears to us to be an 
external independent universe. This is OK for a
scientific model where the assumption is an independent
universe. But a Theosophical model should not function 
under such an assumption when Blavatsky clearly states 
that both matter and spirit are maya.>>>

Yes... Matter and spirit are maya only when they are manifest as separate 
entities or aspects of Absolute space. Yet their root in the unity of the 
zero-point along with its spin motion in the void, and the information that 
it carries in its infinite momentum's -- is an eternal reality. Blavatsky, 
was not only talking about the ideal reality in her metaphysics of 
Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis, but also about its relationship to the 
phenomenal reality. But even in the initial stages, the actions of the Dhyan 
Chohans, and their disagreements were taken into consideration. Thus, the 
chaos factor was in everything from the beginning, and only becomes more 
evident as the numbers of independent (mayavic, if you will) consciousness' 
come into existence, adding more randomness and disorder to the system (which 
must be viewed from both consciousness and from matter, as well as spatially 
from the outside in and the inside out). Later, as the ideal forces of 
fundamental nature begin to interact and solidify into more and more stable 
forms on their lower frequency/energy order field surfaces, the initial chaos 
which was balanced with order at the beginning, begins to change, and chaos 
recedes (as far as our physical observation is concerned) into the zero-point 
energy realm on the sub quantum physical level -- where it always was, and 
still is, a random fluctuation between order and chaos in perfect balance. 
But even on the plane of stable forms, there is a complete randomness within 
the order. Thus, every face is different, every leaf is different, every 
snowflake is different -- yet in their own order of existence they are each 
of the same condition and function. If one were to study the Secret Doctrine 
as deeply as HPB took it in ALL her writings and commentaries, we will find 
that she didn't miss a beat, and covered all these aspects of the ultimate 
reality which exists in eternity. 

Best wishes,

LHM

http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif