Re: Theos-World re scientizing, Leon, speculation, and ...
Mar 20, 2003 07:44 PM
In a message dated 03/18/03 4:25:47 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org writes:
Most of what you write goes so far over my head that I would not even
know where to start with asking questions. The below at least read
like English - so I could ask some questions.
<< Totally? What do you disagree with? There are at least three
separate ideas in that paragraph. You also took it out of context and,
presumedly, have no idea what question I was answering, or what
statement I was referring to. >>
True enough - as Mauri's posts seem as vague to me as yours do.
Reading them is usually useless for me.
<< Sorry about that. What don't you understand? Admittedly, my
writing is necessarily complex, since I am attempting to write logically,
conditions of the Cosmos (from a scientific point of view) and the
nvolutional processes of its field genesis, that are extremely difficult to
talk -- since they involve dimensions beyond those that we can
about conceive of in our reasoning mind. Yet, they can be symbolically
modeled and, with proper mental focus and concentration, intuited in our
To clarify my statement... As you said in another post, "...that things can
cease to be still been" -- my original statement that the "unconditioned
reality (while appearing to be "empty") is NOT non existent" --
still stands. >>
I agree to the latter. Don't know what you refer to before that.
<<That unconditioned reality is the "foundation of all our life here now"
and can be reached in our highest consciousness. That is the condition
of absolute bliss and harmony (Samadhi) when we are completely one
pointed in awareness and all our seven inner fields have become
absorbed in that point. >>
agree once again.
<<[Leon] As for the meaning in the Book of Dzyan, you are confusing the
"unconditioned reality" we were speaking about, with the Absolute reality. >>
Sure - Don't see the difference. How do you see them as different?
The below gives me an inkling - a feel for the difference in your
>yes, but the idea is rather new for me. I've always seen them as the
same, sort of.
They are not different in "essence" but they are different in "state." The
"Absolute reality" (Krishna) is the rootless root of all potential universes.
Since we are speaking of the unconditioned and conditioned reality of this
particular universe, we see them both as different states than the Absolute
rootless root. We might speak of this difference as that between Parabrahm
and Brahma, Ein Soph and Kether, etc. The "unconditioned reality" I speak of
is the root of this Universe before manifestation. The "conditioned reality"
is after its manifestation. Thus Brahma, asleep (unconditioned) or awake
(conditioned) is the "creator" that is one with the "unborn" Absolute
<< [Leon] As Krishna,
representing the Absolute (or "all Presence") said, "I create this entire
universe out of one small part of myself and yet remain separate"...
Therefore, the "Absolute reality" always remains undiminished and
unchanged, whether or not the Cosmos is unconditioned and asleep in
paranishpanna (Cosmic pralaya), or conditioned as the manifest
universe (Cosmic manvantara). >>
That looks like an interesting definition of unconditioned. But it
doesn't make any sense to me, though the part about Krishna does.
We can only speak of the Cosmos (Brahma), which can be unconditioned (when
asleep) and conditioned (when awake). The Absolute reality, rootless root,
(Parabrahm) or Krishna, is neither conditioned nor unconditioned, but always
is Absolute and ineffable. Yet, while they are all part of the one reality,
they are different in their state or circumstance of existence. Remember,
The Absolute is the Father of innumerable universes, and no matter how many
of them are either in conditioned or unconditioned states of existence,
Parabrahm or Ein Soph is forever unchanged. Admittedly, that cannot be
"sensed" since it is beyond all finite conception. However, the unconditioned
Cosmos (Brahma) can only be "sensed" by the "open eye of the Dagma" when it
manifests or becomes conditioned. (Ref: Stanzas I-II)
<< [Leon] I was only speaking of the latter two states that begin with the
"Eternal Parent" and her "ever invisible robes" who had "slumbered once
again for seven eternity's." (Remember, this Cosmos is only one out of an
infinite number of possible universes.) Therefore, this "Mother" of the
Cosmos (or conditioned reality) -- is the "unconditioned reality" that
cannot be conceptualized, or, as Mauri says, "scientized" -- since it is both
timeless and formless. (But we can imagine its motion as being a continuous
spinning of its zero-point, like the center point of the axle of a spinning
wheel.) Yet, unlike the Absolute, which is ineffable, it is the noumenal
root of the phenomenal universe, and thus, "exists" in potential, as a
sleeping force in constant cyclic motion. Its "invisible robes" are the
different aspects of its total force (or "spinergy") that represents the
noumena of the ten fold nature (or fields of consciousness) of its initial
phenomenal manifestation. Seven of these fields are also the robes or
energy-mind-bodies of the first Dhyan Chohans, or seven degrees
of initial consciousness that constitute "The Grand Architect of the
I'm sure this means something to you, but you lose me with every
breath. I think if you explain the sentence about unconditioned
reality being the noumenal root of the phenominal universe - I might
see it better. That sentence seems to be the core matter of the above
paragraph. After that you lose me totally.
Since we are speaking only of this particular Universe or Cosmos, its
sleeping state (Pralaya) before manifestation is the "noumena" or
unconditioned "root" of its waking or phenomenal (manvantara) state. This
latter state is when the unconditioned becomes conditioned. The former is the
"Beness" and the latter, the "being." In either state, the Absolute "rootless
root" continues to be separate and unchanged. Thus, there are three
realities to consider. Yet the three is one. Ref: The first number in thef
ormula, "The three the one, the four the one, the five, etc." (Stanza IV)
<<[Leon] Actually, since every involutional process in the universe can be
understood by analogy and correspondence ("as above, so below") and follows
the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity, the same process of Cosmic
involution can apply to Solar involution as well as the involution of the
fields that represent our individual seven fold nature. Therefore, my
discussion and geometric models describing the scientific basis of this
involutional process, is quite general in its scope, and has to be applied at
whatever level of genesis we are considering.>>
That makes sense. But since I don't understand what you are saying at
all - I can't apply it to any level of genesis.
Sorry about that. I wish it were easier to explain. Unfortunately, its not
(it took over 1500 pages for HPB to cover it all -- and then she had to keep
explaining it over and over in her transactions and articles). Words alone,
however cannot do it -- since what we are talking about is something that has
a multidimensional geometry or topology that extends from the zero-point toa
spherical universe that can only be visualized by the open eye of the Arhat
within us all. My involutional diagrams that are cross sections of this
multidimensional sphericity, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles make
it much clearer for those capable of merging their left and right brains
(words and pictures) while meditating on these multiple realities and their
genesis. However, this for most people (not born with a natural talent for
multidimensional visualization), must be trained, and takes some considerable
practice. So, if you are interested in visualizing these relationships, I
suggest you study the diagrams at:
Rereading the above, with my comments I think it comes down to the
following question: What do you mean by "the unconditioned"?
The "unconditioned" is the noumenal state of the Cosmos at its zero-point
center before manifestation into "conditioned" spherical fields that extend
through all of phenomenal space. This can be visualized by studying my
spherical cross section diagrams, and following the flow of the life energy
ray as it first emanates from the zero-point center (Kama). In my
"chakrafield" page I have several meditational practices to train this
>> Best wishes,
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