Theos-Talk Archives (May 2003 Message tt00225)

L<<<So long as this Cosmos exists, that separate
zero-point of consciousness that we consider our
individual self, will continue to exist -- since its
memory will remain in the zero-point spinergy of its
origin -- which is (with relation to this Cosmos) eternal.
>>>

G<<I can't agree with this. It eliminates the possibility
of liberation. Anyone can liberate themselves from
karma and maya at any time, and the Cosmos will keep
right on going for those left within it. As individuals,
we enter manifestation at some point and leave at some
point, while manifestation itself keeps right on going
without beginning or end.>>

<<[Mauri:] But, (possibly?), "individual self" might be 
defined in such various ways that ... Whatever ... Of 
course (?), on the other hand, in a "reality" where there 
are no "other hands," well ... how could we have 
"which gave it beings" or comparisons of any kind ... 
^:-) ... I tend to agree with Gerald's response.
Speculatively, Mauri>>>

<<[Leon] Why? (Although, I appreciate that such 
acceptance is only "speculatively." :-) Actually, 
Gerald's statement, while correct in part, is confusing
the manifestation with the primal force that empowers 
it. This force is in the form of eternal spin motion that 
has the ability, due to its infinite malleability, to retain 
the encoded memories of all phenomenal experiences 
forever. It's why a Master or Buddha can remember all 
his past lives down to the finest detail -- from the first 
separated fundamental particle of his initial
manifestation up until his present life as a human 
being. Therefore, this permanence of the memories of 
karma does not eliminate the possibility of liberation. 
>>

"Why" in the sense that, as my <<in a "reality" where 
there are no "other hands," well ... how could we have 
"which gave it beings" or comparisons of any kind ... 
>> might suggest, seems to me that the Esoteric 
Tradition (as well as the esoteric tradition, even ... ?) 
would seem to suggest something along those lines, 
keyishly (if somewhat indirectly?) implying (I tend to 
suspect ^:-) something along the lines of Gerald's 
response.

While I'm hoping that you're keeping in mind that I am, 
after all, a speculator, of sorts ("hoping" sort of 
parenthetically speaking without parenthesis, to 
improve my flow here ...), I'm tending to respond with a 
tentative "okay," sort of, to the overall tone of your 
post, (ie, "okay" as per dualistic/karmic mayavicity, at 
least as in SOME "Theosophical circles," maybe ... ?), 
but I'm not, and wasn't (apparently ... ^:-), speculating 
just about liberation, although, (apparently?), there 
might appear to be "real" comparative forms of 
liberation within "karmic reality," and even within 
Higher forms of reality, (possibly?), in some sense, so ...

I don't know about Gerald, but I think I'm under the 
impression (sorry about all this speculativeness, 
incidentally) that there "Ought to be" (in a sense!) 
something like Liberation, with a cap L, maybe ... or 
how about "Liberation," in quotes, to imply, at least 
somewhat "intentionally," from my general direction, 
that some kind of transcendental sense is meant (if 
qualifiedly "in context"): a sense that's "beyond" the 
karmic reality of "ordinary 
speculation/scientizing/reality"? I suspect that that 
kind of Liberation (not that I know of any wording that 
would convey its experientially "real enough" meaning) 
is---I tend to more than suspect (strangley enough), for 
whatever reason (and would you likewise tend to 
suspect, or even kind of agree, Leon, by any chance?)--- 
that that kind of Liberation might be a tad beyond even 
speculators like you and me ... At least a tad beyond ... 
? ^:-) ...

Of course (?), on the other hand, seeing as we're in 
karma, isn't it kind of silly to be speculating about 
something like Liberation that could be The Most 
Obvious Thing, even, maybe, (in a sense?), if only we 
could Enlighted ourselves enough to experience the 
Obviousness of it ... 

Speculatively,
Mauri