Theos-Talk Archives (July 2003 Message tt00123)

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bartl@s...> wrote:
Bart: "Just because something is on the Internet doesn't make it true.

Does that apply to your comments?

>> Under FDR,
>> there were massive social programs enacted, including an attempt to
>> override the Supreme Court by packing it with justices.

Some comments:

(1) Packing the supreme court is not a massive social program

(2) Packing the supreme court is a part of the constitutional system 
of checks and balances

(3) There was no attempt to pack the supreme court, else we would 
have 100 justices today, with numerous seats "owned" by powerful 
constituencies instead of just a few as at present. FDR threatened 
to pack the court as a negotiating tactic.

(4) there was a widespread belief in the thirties that the US had to 
choose between communism and fascism. As a beneficiary of the 
existing system of privilege, Roosevelt tried to preserve those 
privileges for himself and other patricians by means of social 
programs and thereby avoid both fascism and communism. He combined 
those programs at home with wars abroad which shattered fascism and 
contained communism. I am glad he was at the helm when we needed him.

>> Under Kennedy, civil rights violations by federal agencies were
>> routinely greater than even the Patriot Act would allow now. 

Are you talking about federalizing the National Guard and telling 
Lester Maddox to put down his axe? No Patriot Act was required for 
that.

>> Nixon and Clinton routinely used federal agencies for strictly
>> personal purposes.

Not likely, since both of them were under impeachment proceedings and 
would surely have been removed from office had those charges been 
proved.

>> Truman used nuclear weapons, and got the United
>> States involved in an undeclared war.

There is a Russian writer named Tolstoy (not Leo) who claims Truman 
was right. Had he not intervened in Korea Stalin would have invaded 
Western Europe. Tolstoy claims furthermore that Stalin would have 
invaded anyway had he not been murdered by the Kruschev clique.

> Bobby Kennedy was responsible for a lot of it; he made Ashcroft
> look like a piker.

Are you saying you are a Sam Giancana supporter?

Bart: "The leaders of many Islamic countries DO hate the U.S.A. And 
some, like Saudi Arabia, walk a tightrope between need for us and 
hatred of us. 

Those of us who study political science know that love is fickle, 
self interest dependable. The rules are different between countries 
and between individuals. If I were a national leader I would rather 
ally myself with people who hate me and yet need me than with people 
who do not need me and temporarily love me. On a personal level of 
course it is otherwise.

>> the people reading this are
>> NOT idiots.

Are you sure? You are not new to this list, are you?

> As legal counsel represents the very system, it is only
> natural that legal counsel is a shortcoming too and one better
> avoided, as countles innocent citizens who are in US jails can
> testify.

I have to say, Bart, that's not fair. Since the system is 
adversarial, the defending attorney is required to defend his client 
by all means, fair and foul, or face disbarment and worse. Worn out 
ex Marines I have known, though, are unanimous that military courts 
are courts in name only, and take orders from unseen commanders who 
decide the outcome before the trial even starts. So the idea of 
trying people before military tribunals in secret is worrisome to 
some people and rightly so.

> Besides, at this moment America has more people in jails
> than any other counrty including China

Well, yes, Bart, but sociologists argue that you can increase or 
lower the crime rate by enacting or repealing laws. If everything is 
illegal, then everyone is a criminal. The US has more criminals than 
anyone else because the US has more laws than anyone else.