Theos-Talk Archives (December 2003 Message tt00340)

Dec 23 2003

Dear Bill,

Re: the absolute around the world



I enjoyed reading your posts. They make me think.


May I ask if you have had similar experiences, such as I will give ?


It has seemed to me that there are always three things we cannot
entirely do away with:

1.	"Myself" as an observer, witness, receptor, thinker, chooser.

2.	The varied "Universe" all around, in and through me.

3.	an enormous amount of "relationships" that bind the two of us
(the universe and I) together.


To have faith (to me) usually implies memory, reason, logic, freedom to
question, inquire further, and review, and also to reject the illogical
-- and to set aside the improbable for later consideration. But, to
also be always very attentive to what is happening in the areas we might
designate: thought, feeling and action.

In no case can I visualize myself adopting anything entirely on "blind"
faith. I see danger there. Why should I limit myself to some external
imposed or adopted parameters ( as I see is done in many religions in
the instruction of children from an early age). This is also applied to
politics and nationality. Yet these latter are continually changing.
Organized religions do not invite deep and impartial scrutiny.
Philosophies, by their inherent nature always invite examination and
revision, when they are in search of universal and impartial truth, law
and accept all facts for impartial and logical examination.

Science claims it is dedicated to discovery, measurement, and the
establishing of facts. To explain (or evolve a history of ) present
observations a number of "theories or hypotheses" are current and some
receive more "faith and belief" than others. In fact "faith and belief
" in scientific theories is usually expected of students. [ The general
belief that man's form has descended from ape bodies, is still current,
in spite of the fact that de Quatrefages proved about 140 years ago that
skeletal analysis showed the earliest ape skeletons were specializations
of the primitive human skeleton. In other words Man was primordial and
the apes were a secondary derivation. ] Questions, challenges and new
discoveries that upset older ones are usually received with a mixture of
disdain, skepticism and caution. "Authority" is widely respected. But
the fact is that the Universe which is under such examination has been
in operation for untold ages. We are newcomers, and are examining it to
discover its secret ways of working in the support of life (including
ourselves, the "new-born").

I do not expect anyone to "believe" or "to have faith" in anything I
might say or believe myself. I am sure they have their own freedom, and
together, I believe we can resolve may difficulties by mutual research,
questioning and assistance.  

To endeavour to persuade or enforce "a belief" on others is
fundamentally, I am sure, an error.  

But I do observe that the Universe around us is well provided with is
own laws and methods of growth. It has been doing that for our remote
ancestors and will likely continue in to the indefinite future for our
heirs and scions. 

Best wishes,

Dallas

=====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Meredith [mailto:bill_meredith@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 7:01 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] the absolute around the world

It might be injurious to dispose of faith in such an "absolute" manner.
We
often demonstrate daily a faith in "logic" and laws of nature and most
importantly we display a deep and abiding faith in our own ability to
ferret
out Truth. When we have believed what we believe long enough -- when
our
beliefs have withstood what we consider to be intense scrutiny, then we
might cast about for a new word for our beliefs. After all, those other
people have beliefs too. We may become convinced that we have Truth and
Certainty to give us comfort on our journey.

I have noted a tone of contempt that resonates when we mention "personal
Gods" and the like. Yet we hail our very own Theosophical Masters and
applaud their creative abilities as they watch over us and guide us in
our
ever developing humanity. Of course it is proper to recognized that they
are
"limited" masters who must also answer to their own chiefs. Since most
of
us on this list have never met Master Koot Hoomi, we have to take him on
faith. As for the notion that the Master resides within each of us,
that
too must be taken on faith. At least on the faith in our own abilities
to
discern the wheat from the chaff.

Trust me on this.

regards,

Bill


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <study@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 8:21 PM
Subject: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] the absolute around the world


Dec 22 2003



Dear Reed:



Re: Inquiry into "GOD."





Quotations from various scriptures read.



They don't all relate to the "ABSOLUTE." But rather they are directed
to emphasize the limited "Personal God" of most theologies. They tend to
divide, they do not unite.



The Theosophical philosophy does away with the artificial limits set up
by priests and sacerdotalism, and the claims to special or private
knowledge. It speaks of the freedom that all humans possess. It
invites the free mind of mankind to expand and grow, and finally, in the
words of Hermes: MAN, KNOW THYSELF.



One thing more strikes me. And this is a matter of logic and clear
thinking: --



If "God" (or Deity) is omnipresent then our human Mind's capacity to
enquire, be curious, seek for, etc. is merely the drop seeking to
understand the implication of the ocean. Yet, that same "drop" (that is
each human mind), is IN the the OCEAN.



There is no presumption in that is there?



The power to think is unlimited. Why?



But I can see the fine hand of priestcraft interposing itself and making
"man" something subservient and far "less" than God. And further efforts
have been consistently made to subdue and limit that same freedom of
thought.



The statement: "Have FAITH," is the one most commonly heard. It is
about as good as " Trust me," used by the con artists everywhere.



Best wishes,



Dallas





PS



In 1877 HPB published ISIS UNVEILED . This marked the
beginning of the modern THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT



In the Preface, as a "foundation stone" she wrote: From: "ISIS
UNVEILED ( Vol. I, p. vi.)





"The book is written in all sincerity. It is meant to do even
justice, and to speak the truth alike without malice or prejudice. But
it shows neither mercy for enthroned error, nor reverence for usurped
authority.



It demands for a spoliated past, that credit for its achievements which
has been too long withheld. It calls for a restitution of borrowed
robes, and the vindication of calumniated but glorious reputations.



Toward no form of worship, no religious faith, no scientific hypothesis
has its criticism been directed in any other spirit.



Men and parties, sects and schools are but the mere ephemera of the
world's day. TRUTH, high-seated upon its rock of adamant, is alone
eternal and supreme.


We believe in no Magic which transcends the scope and capacity of
the human mind, nor in "miracle," whether divine or diabolical, if such
imply a transgression of the laws of nature instituted from all
eternity.



Nevertheless, we accept the saying of the gifted author of Festus, that
the human heart has not yet fully uttered itself, and that we have never
attained or even understood the extent of its powers. Is it too much to
believe that man should be developing new sensibilities and a closer
relation with nature? The logic of evolution must teach as much, if
carried to its legitimate conclusions.



If, somewhere, in the line of ascent from vegetable or ascidian to the
noblest man a soul was evolved, gifted with intellectual qualities, it
cannot be unreasonable to infer and believe that a faculty of perception
is also growing in man, enabling him to descry facts and truths even
beyond our ordinary ken.



Yet we do not hesitate to accept the assertion of Biffé, that "the
essential is forever the same. Whether we cut away the marble inward
that hides the statue in the block, or pile stone upon stone outward
till the temple is completed, our NEW result is only an old idea. The
latest of all the eternities will find its destined other half-soul in
the earliest."


When, years ago, we first travelled over the East, exploring the
penetralia of its deserted sanctuaries, two saddening and ever-recurring
questions oppressed our thoughts:



Where, WHO, WHAT is GOD?



Who ever saw the IMMORTAL SPIRIT of man, so as to be able to assure
himself of man's immortality?




It was while most anxious to solve these perplexing problems that we
came into contact with certain men, endowed with such mysterious powers
and such profound knowledge that we may truly designate them as the
sages of the Orient.



To their instructions we lent a ready ear.



They showed us that by combining science with religion, the existence of
God and immortality of man's spirit may be demonstrated like a problem
of Euclid.



For the first time we received the assurance that the Oriental
philosophy has room for no other faith than an absolute and immovable
faith in the omnipotence of man's own immortal self. We were taught that
this omnipotence comes from the kinship of man's spirit with the
Universal Soul - God! The latter, they said, can never be demonstrated
but by the former. Man-spirit proves God-spirit, as the one drop of
water proves a source from which it must have come. Tell one who had
never seen water, that there is an ocean of water, and he must accept it
on faith or reject it altogether. But let one drop fall upon his hand,
and he then has the fact from which all the rest may be inferred. After
that he could by degrees understand that a boundless and fathomless
ocean of water existed.



Blind faith would no longer be necessary; he would have supplanted it
with KNOWLEDGE.



When one sees mortal man displaying tremendous capabilities, controlling
the forces of nature and opening up to view the world of spirit, the
reflective mind is overwhelmed with the conviction that if one man's
spiritual Ego can do this much, the capabilities of the FATHER SPIRIT
must be relatively as much vaster as the whole ocean surpasses the
single drop in volume and potency. Ex nihilo nihil fit;[Out of NO THING,
nothing comes.] prove the soul of man by its wondrous powers - you have
proved God!


In our studies, mysteries were shown to be no mysteries. Names and
places that to the Western mind have only a significance derived from
Eastern fable, were shown to be realities.



Reverently we stepped in spirit within the temple of Isis; to lift aside
the veil of "the one that is and was and shall be" at Saïs; to look
through the rent curtain of the Sanctum Sanctorum at Jerusalem; and even
to interrogate within the crypts which once existed beneath the sacred
edifice, the mysterious Bath-Kol.



The Filia Vocis - the daughter of the divine voice - responded from the
mercy-seat within the veil,* and science, theology, every human
hypothesis and conception born of imperfect knowledge, lost forever
their authoritative character in our sight.



The one-living God had spoken through his oracle - man, and we were
satisfied. Such knowledge is priceless; and it has been hidden only from
those who overlooked it, derided it, or denied its existence."



H P B ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. I, Preface.



====================



-----Original Message-----
From: Reed Carson
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 11:04 AM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] the absolute around the world



Steve,

As I suggested, it might be worthwhile to start a discussion of the
fundamental cosmological conceptions of Theosophy. So here are a few
quotes from around the world expressing in different ways, different
approaches to what we call the absolute.

Reed







QUOTES



========================



Truly Thou art a God who hidest Thyself.

1. Judaism and Christianity. Bible, Isaiah 45.15

Invent not similitudes for God; for God knows, and you know not.

2. Islam. Qur'an 16.74

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

3. Judaism and Christianity. Bible, Isaiah 55.8-9

No vision can grasp Him,
But His grasp is over all vision;
He is above all comprehension,
Yet is acquainted with all things.

4. . Islam. Qur'an 6.103

Can you find out the deep things of God?
Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?
It is higher than heaven--what can you do?
Deeper than Sheol--what can you know?
Its measure is longer than the earth,
and broader than the sea.

5. . Judaism and Christianity. Bible, Job 11.7-9

We raise to degrees of wisdom whom We please; but over all endued with
knowledge is One, the All-knowing.

6. Islam. Qur'an 12.76

At this time the World-honored One serenely arose from meditation and
addressed Shariputra, "The wisdom of all the Buddhas is infinitely
profound and immeasurable. The portal to this wisdom is difficult to
understand and difficult to enter. Neither men of learning nor men of
realization are able to comprehend it."

7. . Buddhism. Lotus Sutra 2

1 Conze, Selected Sayings from the Perfection of Wisdom (Boulder: Prajna
Press, 1978) 24. Isaiah 55.8-9: Cf. 1 Corinthians 1.20-25, p. 798. Lotus
Sutra 2: 'men of learning' are shravakas who rightly understand the Four
Noble Truths and who attain arhatship. 'men of realization' are
pratyekabuddhas who rightly understand the twelve links of causation and
who attain pratyekabuddhahood through solitary effort and meditation.
This sutra was composed in a period of rivalry among the various schools
of Buddhism. The Buddha goes on to say that the only way to enter the
door is by faith.


If you think that you know well the truth of Brahman, know that you know
little. What you think to be Brahman in your self, or what you think to
be Brahman in the gods--that is not Brahman. What is indeed the truth of
Brahman you must therefore learn.


I cannot say that I know Brahman fully. Nor can I say that I know Him
not. He among us knows Him best who understands the spirit of the words,
"Nor do I know that I know Him not."


He truly knows Brahman who knows Him as beyond knowledge; he who thinks
that he knows, knows not. The ignorant think that Brahman is known, but
the wise know Him to be beyond knowledge.

8. Hinduism. Kena Upanishad 2.1-3

---




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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