Theos-Talk Archives (May 2004 Message tt00077)

Thursday, May 06, 2004

Re: Divine Wind

Dear Tony:

Those are indeed deep and valuable considerations and questions.
Also, I would not make up my mind in advance. But as you show,
consider the possibilities in advance, and ask if there are any
precedents or known laws of a virtuous kind that would be applicable. 

Seems to me, that a study of the dichotomy of virtue and vice is in
order. Are there any impersonal directives or guide lines? Has
anyone written extensively on this theme? Or are there only scattered
statements (if one desires precedents). In ay case how ought we to
think about this? It is a most sensitive and touchy subject.

It still leaves the final decision to the individual at the time when
Karma demands a response-action from him.  

We then have: "To act, or, not to act." 

What are the effects of inaction? What kind of effects might spring
from any of our actions? How are our acts selected and determined?
What is our basis for consideration and decision? Does Theosophy offer
any criteria?

Perhaps our own greatest obstacle (a personal one, not an INDIVIDUAL
one) is "fear of consequences." So it is ignorance and a fear of the
pain the personality might suffer, consequent on his/her decisions.

I think the" second" birth into Initiation (?) is something else. It
appears to me that this revolves around the assuming (and continually
embodying) by the personality of the virtues of the INDIVIDUALITY. All
the tests spoken of, and reviewed, in MAHATMA LETTERS seem to me, to
reflect this phase of individual/personal change in the aspirant. 

If the motives of those engaged in war are for justice and freedom,
regardless of the necessary war-like acts, then when the objects were
obtained and peace resumed, those would still be actuated by the same
motives and would draw into incarnation the association of
reincarnating egos of like nature. 

Yes there are times when a military role has to be considered. What
the outcome of that is, is to me, unpredictable. If I defend myself it
is one kind of motive, and, if I defend others it is an entirely
different one. Still it is a moral choice in any case.

The condition of war may equally provide greater opportunities for
self-sacrificing righteous action, and for selfish license and
debasement. Which it shall be, depends upon the nature and choice of
the personality. A nation has no existence apart from the units which
compose it. A selfish peace will result in greater perversions than
any number of wars waged for righteous purposes. As I see it,
selfishness lies at the root of all sin, sorrow and suffering.

But there again, no one can tell another how to act or what to decide.
Is it not always so?

As to the MYSTERIES - these ought to be analysed and identified. I
read that there were the Minor and the Major MYSTERIES. One thing is
certain to me, and that is the path of the aspirant is not one of
blind trust, but rather of measured understanding of how LAW operates
in a direct, honest fashion.  

As I understand it, the aspirant to esoteric and occult altitude has
to be absolutely pure of any personal desires under any circumstances.
He has to be impervious to any kind of coercion or deceptive practise.
And he/she, of themselves, have to be certain that the whole ancient
occult / esoteric process of self-education is one that is in
agreement with the brotherhood of all beings in UNIVERSAL NATURE (
DEITY as some call it). Does this estrange us from family and loved
ones? It would on the surface appear to be so. But deep down where
all is resolved to motive, it does not. Brotherhood is either a fact
or it is totally fictitious. 

In all this, I ask myself: "Is loss of life the ultimate penalty?"  

I see clearly (I hope) that for the "personality" it is. The question
then is: "Is the personality justified in using any other than just
and fair means to "survive?" 

"Conning," and "manipulation of people" are to me abhorrent, cowardly,
and selfish. And to this your proposition that any decision I might
make would "cost my friends their lives." 

I have thought about this. This is a scenario I have imagined: -- If
one is placed in duress, (and, incidentally, placed in a position of
inequality, where we are surrounded by painful compulsive conditions
by cowards) and then, our intelligence is insulted by the false hope
of an offer of a personal let-up of pain -- if "true" information is
given. How can we trust such an offer to be a fair and honest one?
Are liars, cheats and thieves ever free of that tendency? Are they
honest in making such an offer? Will they carry out their part of the
bargain? Are our friends, wives, children, and "family" saved from
oppression rape, torture? We don't know, do we? Is this not
bargaining with an embodied "devil?" This 'devil' pretends to be
honest. Is he ?

You offer me a quote concerning that which HPB said of herself. I
read it, but did not index it (or if I did, I cannot find my note).
Where is it, please ?

Best wishes,	

Dallas
 
==============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony 
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:55 AM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Theos-World Re: Divine Wind

Dear Dallas

Did it cost Jesus his life? Doesn't his life reflect the life of all
Initiates. Don't we lose our life to be re-born as the Initiate . . .
whenever that may be -- a second inner birth? He rose again from the
dead.
The crucifixion symbolises the inner life and the MYSTERIES. Is this
an
outer event. As I understand it that is fiction, and is about power
and
conning people. The cruelty of the manipulation of religions.

<<<All I can offer is myself as an
"objector." And doing so might cost me my life, friends, and
other things --- >>>

It may also cost your friends their lives.
Some are born where they are not put in the position, where they have
had to
fight in a military battle. Isn't that to do with Karma? If born
at a
different time they may well have found (or will find) themselves
fighting
in a war. W Q Judge's position on this, by a quote you made (amongst
all
those others regarding war), was that we have to do the best in the
situations we find ourselves in, which may include fighting in a war.

You write:
"Never explain. Your friends don't need it.
Your enemies won't believe you anyway."

'Scoffers and the press asked one another "How is it that this pupil
[HPB]
of semi-omniscient Mahatmas, the natural clairvoyant and trained
reader of
the minds of men, cannot even tell her friends from her foes?"

HPB: "Who am I," she said answering one question with another, "who am
I
that I should deny a chance to one in whom I see a spark still
glimmering of
recognition of the Cause I serve that might yet be fanned into a flame
of
devotion? What matter the consequences that fall on me personally
when such
an one fails, succumbing to the forces of evil within him --
deception,
ingratitude, revenge, what not -- forces that I saw as clearly as I
saw the
hopeful spark: though in his fall he cover me with misrepresentation,
obloquy and scorn? What right have I to refuse any one the chance of
profiting by the truths I can teach him, and thereby entering upon the
Path?
I tell you that I have no choice. I am pledged by the strictest rules
and
laws of occultism to a renunciation of selfish considerations, and how
can I
dare to assume the existence in the faults in a candidate and act upon
my
assumption even though a cloudy forbidding aura may fill me with
misgivings?"'

Something we can all at least aspire towards.

Tony


-----Original Message-----
From: Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net]
Sent: 5 May 2004 12:30 pm
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Theos-World Re: Divine Wind


Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Dear Tony:

I foretold this to you: This will lead to discussion, arguments
and open up points of divergence.

If unity is sought, then peace gives it. My refusal to fight or
to kill others in any event, is entirely my own decision. I
accept misunderstanding and also rejection. So be it. How can I
try to apply Theosophy without going the whole way?

Brotherhood is for all, not a selection.

Killing proves nothing either to the perpetrator or to the one
who is killed, does it?

On the other hand there is the BHAGAVAD GITA and the arguments
for a righteous war. Arjuna was a Kshatriya and war was one of
his duties.

And so it goes.

I give no support to tyranny or violence of any kind. And
certainly no support to tyrants. All I can offer is myself as an
"objector." And doing so might cost me my life, friends, and
other things --- So be it. I believe it cost Jesus His life?
I continually ask myself: "What should a true follower of the
Christ do?"

But Jesus does not stand alone in history either as a "Man of
Peace."

In any case I can only speak for myself. Others are free to make
their own decisions. Generally I would say as a wise friend did:

"Never explain. Your friends don't need it.
Your enemies won't believe you anyway."

Best wishes,


Dallas



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