Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00471)

Hi Krishtar and others,

No matter how much we increase our "inner sensitivity" how can we be sure 
that what we experience through such means is not an illusion? 

With such a possibility, the only real confirmation of theosophical 
metaphysical theories can only come about through a combination of both objective 
intellectual examination as well as internal subjective experiencing. 

Only if theosophy, as originally presented by HPB, is true, will both these 
perceptions and understandings be consistent with each other. Therefore, for 
each individual seeker, there cannot be any final and irrefutable "proof" of 
theosophy solely using the method of inner examination and self discovery. 

Since, theosophy professes to be based on "laws" that operate on each level 
of universal manifestation through "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields of 
consciousness, those laws on each level must be "scientifically" consistent, 
based on the same fundamental cause. Therefore, they are subject to 
intellectual analysis using our mental powers of logical deduction and induction 
directed toward examination of universal reality from both the point of view of their 
effects, as well as from their causes -- in accord with fundamental 
principles? 

This, then, requires the knowledge of symbology, and the ability to interpret 
such symbology (as explained in the Secret Doctrine, with reference to the 
writings of all the ancient Masters of Wisdom) in the form of mental images of 
phenomenal reality encompassing all the seven fold levels of being and how they 
interrelate with each other -- that one can model and follow their logical 
and lawful involution and evolution in the rational mind. And, by so doing, 
compare them with the direct experiences of ultimate reality in the intuitive 
mind linked directly to Atma (i.e., when one has arrived at that state of 
open-mindedness through long practice of the yoga of mindful meditation as taught by 
Patanjali). Therefore, there are no easy ways to attain this spiritual 
knowledge and wisdom.

When both these objective and subjective "images" coincide, then one can 
begin to accept theosophy as being true -- for oneself. Only then, can one have 
faith in the Masters and start on the path to Chelaship -- with further direct 
guidance by them -- and without concern for the teachings by any self 
professed "gurus" who followed after HPB, other than confirmations of whether or not 
they knew what they were talking about.

Leonardo 

P.S. For help in forming and visualizing these "images" in the rational mind 
that is consistent with those grasped intuitively, and also with theosophical 
metaphysics along with its fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity, see"
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif

Hint, for the scientific and technical minded; Note that all circles in these 
diagrams represent cross sections of spherical fields that, as they involve 
fractally, wind up their surfaces from twin positive and negative rays of 
primal force that descends spirally (at lower and lower levels of both 
energy/frequency) from spirit to matter -- through inner vortical Mobius-like paths that 
are both inside and outside simultaneously... With their zero-point centers 
everywhere and their circumference nowhere. Understanding this, the rest is up 
to you. All this, BTW, occurs before the "big bang." Incidentally, reading 
Stephen Hawking's, "The Universe in a Nutshell" might help fill in the 
connections between theosophical metaphysics' view from the inside out and physical 
science's and cosmology's view from the outside in (or vice versa, depending on 
how one looks at it. :-) In any event, as HPB predicted, they are getting 
closer and closer to confirming theosophy.

(For those who think correct metaphysical knowledge along with a "synthesis 
of science religion and philosophy" is unimportant in arriving at 
self-realization and attaining the higher wisdom leading toward Adept -- throw away all 
your books and follow your guru -- who might, at least, get you through this life 
without harm... Or, fugeddaboudit. :-)))

In a message dated 09/15/04 7:09:05 AM, krishtar_a@brturbo.com writes:

<<Hi Perry.


IMHO it seems to me that you are looking at the theosophical wisdom with a 
very materialistic and logic mind, not even the minute statements in SD or Isis 
can be confirmed by the mere use of your intellectuality. Most of what the 
Mahatmas recorded by the pen of Blavatsky are, as you know, a truth about the 
inner side of things, all we have here around us is mere manifestation of all the 
laws she was trying to show and demonstrate.

I guess that as human instruments, as she said, cannot demonstrate the 
veracity of much that what she taught, you Perry should tune in, increase your inner 
sensibility somehow. It'd be the only way to discover by yourself if 
"theosophy may be wrong".

The sense that something is really true must come from inside.


Regards

Krishtar>>


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Perry Coles 

To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:46 AM

Subject: Theos-World Re: endless series of Seers



Pedro I don't know how to put the issue anymore clearly than it 

already has been put.


Nobody is saying (as far as I can ascertain) that HPB's writings are 

infallible or even true for that matter(as is my case I don't know if 

they are "true")


Each individual can only access that for themselves over many 

incarnations I would imagine. (that's if reincarnation is "true")

To me the writings have enough in them to keep me reading and sharing 

them with others but always in a critical way open to new rationales 

as they are presented.


Theosophy may be wrong ! 


The ideas seem at this point to me to have some voracity so I 

continue my study of them, for now anyway.


You may need to take the Mahatma to task over his own statement as to 

the need to be "regularly initiated and trained" in order to have any 

confidence on inner plane readings of psychics, that is not my 

statement but his.(is he right ? I don't know. the rationale seems 

consistent to me)


HPB made repeatedly the same comment it's a shame she's not here for 

us to pose that question to.

These statements are hers and the Mahatma's statements not mine or 

anyone else's.


I place the same quote from `Key' I placed earlier I think it 

explains the situation of theosophical teachings far more clearly 

than I can :

Keeping in mind the second question on blind faith and how its not in 

the "theosophical dictionary"

This is the key to it never becoming dogma or holy writ.




ENQUIRER. But what are your data for this assertion?


THEOSOPHIST. What science in general will never accept as proof -- the

cumulative testimony of an endless series of Seers who have testified

to this fact. Their spiritual visions, real explorations by, and

through, physical and spiritual senses untrammelled by blind flesh,

were systematically checked and compared one with the other, and their

nature sifted. All that was not corroborated by unanimous and

collective experience was rejected, while that only was recorded as

established truth which, in various ages, under different climes, and

throughout an untold series of incessant observations, was found to

agree and receive constantly further corroboration. The methods used

by our scholars and students of the psycho-spiritual sciences do not

differ from those of students of the natural and physical sciences, as

you may see. Only our fields of research are on two different planes,

and our instruments are made by no human hands, for which reason

perchance they are only the more reliable. The retorts, accumulators,

and microscopes of the chemist and naturalist may get out of order;

the telescope and the astronomer's horological instruments may get

spoiled; our recording instruments are beyond the influence of weather

or the elements.


ENQUIRER. And therefore you have implicit faith in them?


THEOSOPHIST. Faith is a word not to be found in theosophical

dictionaries: we say knowledge based, on observation and experience.

There is this difference, however, that while the observation and

experience of physical science lead the Scientists to about as many

"working" hypotheses as there are minds to evolve them, our knowledge

consents to add to its lore only those facts which have become

undeniable, and which are fully and absolutely demonstrated. We have

no two beliefs or hypotheses on the same subject.



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" <prmoliveira@y...> 

wrote:

> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR<ramadoss@g...> wrote:

> 

> 

> > Were there not several instances of what is said in Isis 

> was "apparently" 

> > different from later explanation in SD. When one deals especially 

> with 

> > matters what psychics can see and describe, there are bound to be 

> some 

> > differences. Until such time that *we can for ourselves see first 

> hand*, 

> > there are going to be differences of perception. It also reminds 

me 

> of the 

> > blind men and the elephant. Each had a different perception and 

all 

> are 

> > correct in their limited perception.

> 

> 

> Mr Ramadoss:

> 

> I fully agree with your view. We should aim at direct perception of 

> the truth (or otherwise) of the teachings for ourselves. 

> Regarding "Isis", see what Master K.H. wrote (ML 18, chronological):

> 

> "(By-the-bye you must not trust Isis literally. The book is but a 

> tentative effort to divert the attention of the Spiritualists from 

> their preconceptions to the true state of things. The author was 

made 

> to hint and point out in the true direction, to say what things are 

> not, not what they are. Proof reader helping, a few real mistakes 

> have crept in as on page 1, chapter 1, volume 1, where divine 

Essence 

> is made emanating from Adam instead of the reverse.)"

> 

> Perhaps the present-day generation of students is faced with a kind 

> of antinomy: "Theosophy encourages the seach for Truth, but only 

the 

> teachings of HPB and the Mahatmas are true".

> 

> Pedro