Theos-Talk Archives (October 2004 Message tt00369)

Dear Dallas, Thanks you for your comments. I have included some of my own below. Take care of yourself.

Oct 20 2004



Re: Belief and Faith.



Dear B:



May I break in here - as it is very interesting.



Belief or faith indicates to me, either proof by logic, intuitive knowledge, or confidence and trust in the veracity of evidence offered.



Conclusions logically follow assumptions. In its purest form, Descartes was able to logically declare, "I think, therefore I am." Nothing more can be added to that fundamental logic without additional assumptions. Assuming the existence of a Great Chain of Beings and then using that assumption to prove the existence of Masters of Wisdom is circular reasoning. Assuming the existence of Masters and then using that assumption to prove the existence of the Great Chain of Beings is also circular reasoning in the other direction. So without our own direct experience of Masters making it rain indoors, smoking big stogies, and chatting here and there, we are left with your last two options as a basis for our faith and belief in them. You say that belief and faith can be based on confidence and trust. This is tantamount to saying that belief and faith can be based on belief and faith. So finally we are left only with our intuition, free from the restraints of logic, confidence, and trust. Intuition is an internal ordering of our perceptions such that we may actually see with the eye of dangma, "the faculty of spiritual intuition through which direct and certain knowledge is attainable." [SD I p46] Does your intuition show you the Masters participating in parlor tricks? If so, then you have a basis for your belief or faith in these historical descriptions of Masters of Wisdom. Mine does not, hence I have not the intuitive basis to support a belief in these descriptions. 



It cannot be conveyed to another, in any other way that I know - to provide absolute certainty -- although the reasons for one's" belief" may be described. In other words, there is no way that some magnetic transfer can be made (laying on of hands, apostolic succession, etc .) 



I agree. Images, information, emotions, questions, answers, and other thought forms can be transferred telepathically without the requirement even to lay on hands, but absolute certainty cannot be conveyed period. This alone should give us pause to consider the nature of the source of absolute certainty. Either way, I do not think that "belief" in Masters, as Judge uses the phrase, rises to the level of absolute certainty in any case except that of being at One with the Master within. 



It is always a matter of self consideration and ultimately of self-choice and decision. It is a self regulated mental action for each one. 



What interests me is how self considers belief and doubt and what processes self uses to decide and choose. It seems to me that the more aware of our own thought processes we can become, the more liberated from the illusions of belief and doubt we will be. Belief and doubt are two sides of a duality. Certain knowledge lies beyond the grasp of either.





In the matter lf the "Masters of Wisdom," (as I look at it) what parallels or correspondences do we have?



If we consider the description of the 7-Principles of the Universe and their reflection in Man's constitution we find that wisdom corresponds to Buddhi, and that is the pure pellucid receptacle (vehicle) of the SPIRIT - ATMA. 

[S D I 157-8; II 596] 



I posted a description of philosophical thought for Morten. When you say the words, "When we consider the description.....we find..." I have to translate that as "When we accept the description [assumption]....we find...[logical conclusion]"

If our assumption is that the S D contains the truth then it follows that anything that we quote from the S D must be true. On the other hand, if we read the S D and recognize within its pages some Truth that we recognized within ourselves then it is we who remain the credible authority on Truth and not the S D. Anything that we read in the SD that we cannot verify from within our self need be neither believed or doubted. 





However we are looking at this from the point of view of our present brain-minds - more accustomed to the dark avenues and tortuous arguments of Kama-Manas - the desire-mind -- which, as a goal, seeks its own personal and isolated "pleasure," rather than the "truth of things." 



Everyone's brain mind is a little different I suppose. Mine is not accustomed to dark avenues and tortuous arguments. My goal is to know the truth of things. Isn't yours? 



This may seem to be too brief a description.





But if we consider that we are able to deal with concepts that have little or no element of personal "pleasure," or of the comforts of our isolated personality, we may see that there is a whole range of ideas that are based on actuality, truth universal, and order. And I will admit that in our terms we may say there is a "joy" in being able to do this. 



Can we consider that Karma, or the general (and inter-individual) law of relationships, ruling the Universe and ourselves, has to be meticulously just, fair, accurate for all beings. Can we safely say: that starting with the most minute "monad," it is of necessity merciful --- as it is rigid justice for all, in terms of give and take, and because of the continual and unavoidable individual responsibility to the WHOLE. 



Again Dallas, I understand all that you are saying if I substitute your words, "Can we consider..." with "Can we accept..." which is required in order to make the follow-on parts of your discussion make sense. Much of what you say I can and do accept as a premise for living and as an assumption on which to build my life not because you say it or the S D says it but because I have chosen it from within. What I choose to accept and assume is a result of my own understanding of my own Self. 





Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. I always appreciate your point of view. I continue to learn from you. Thanks again.





Bill






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