Theos-Talk Archives (December 2004 Message tt00082)

Krishtar,

Thanks for your comments. I see your point of view, but I also see some 
possible disconnect. Probably it is just the language, but when you 
conclude, "There are and there were real enlighted people in the world.
I believe it.," are you implying that Christopher Calder or I or Bart or 
Morten are somehow disagreeing with that statement? I have met some "real 
enlighted" people. However, they were not perfect even though they were 
real and enlightened they remain "people" in the sense of being active 
participants in the human condition. Is it your position that there are and 
were perfect human beings? If so I must ask how you have reached this 
conclusion?

bill
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "krishtar" <krishtar_a@brturbo.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho_ Bill



Hi Bill

I am reading the entire article on line and agree with many afirmations and 
doubt of many too.
The article excerpt you kindly included for example says " The idealized 
fantasy of perfect
enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never
existed."
Iīll throw my theos books in the trash bin!(smile)
_______________________________________________________
Other excerpts from the link that show the limitations of the "thinkers".The 
authority of the articles are also questionable, but useful to see other 
POVīs:

" In my opinion, the world would be better off if most of the books written 
by the famous mystics were used for fuel to keep us all warm at night. "
"Meditation is basic good-clean-fun."
"Objectively, by any measurement, enlightened people are as egocentric as 
anyone else."
"There was no "Lord Buddha," only an enlightened Siddhartha Gautama. There 
was no "Lord Jesus," only a carpenter who made extravagant claims. The only 
way to be egoless is to physically die and not come back into this world. 
If you are here, you have an ego. Do not fool yourself or allow yourself to 
be fooled by others. "
Christopher Calder
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There are and there were real enlighted people in the world.
I believe it.
The sub-links of the mentioned link lead us to other articles of doubtful 
background as the claiming that if we loose the ego our brain cannot survive 
and things like that prove that the people who wrote have a limited 
awareness of what ego and personality is, he is another seeker like us, 
whose fallibility is plainly possible.

Krishtar

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bill Meredith
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World compassion thoughts on osho



Bart,

Thanks for the Osho link. I hope the folks who find the time to attack 
you
also find the time to read the essay. I have included a small section 
below
because it speaks to the issue of "masters" --even theosophical 
masters ---
from a perspective with which I generally am in agreement.

regards,

bill

excerpt from http://home.att.net/~meditation/Osho.html


< Rajneesh's disciples thought they were following an authoritative
"enlightened master." In reality they had been mislead by a highly 
fallible
enlightened human animal who was still a little boy at heart. Rajneesh 
had
not only misrepresented himself personally, but he misrepresented the
phenomena of enlightenment itself. The idealized fantasy of perfect
enlightenment does not exist anywhere in the real world and it has never
existed. The universe is far too big and complex for anyone to be its
"master." We are all subjects, not masters, and those who pretend to be
infallible and all-knowing end up looking even more the fool in the end.

"Nature does not use anything as a model. It is only interested in
perfecting the species. It is trying to create perfect species and not
perfect beings." U.G. Krishnamurti

The famous sages of old seem perfect to us now only because they have
become larger than life myths. The long passage of time has allowed their
followers to effectively cover up their guru's flaws, just as Rajneesh
disciples are currently rewriting and censoring history to cover up
Rajneesh's great failings. Rajneesh was never more infallible than any
other human being. What we call enlightenment is not a cure-all for 
faults
and frailties that cling to human animals even after they achieve maximum
possible consciousness, which is perhaps a more realistic definition of 
the
term 'enlightenment.'

The contradiction of corruption and enlightenment can occur because 
the
individual is only the lens of enlightenment, not the source of cosmic 
power
itself. The enlightened only allow universal energy to pass through them
unblocked, untouched, and uncontaminated. In a way no one ever really
becomes enlightened personally. Enlightenment happens at the place where
you are standing but you cannot own it or possess it. All the words of
so-called enlightened men come from the human brain which interprets the
phenomena of enlightenment like a translator. The words do not come from
the enlightenment itself. By definition enlightenment cannot speak. It 
is
absolutely silent and beyond any need to speak. >




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