Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00657)

Thanks Cass
I don't have a problem with it being circulated to other TS people,
perhaps they may like to join us here at theos-talk and take part in
the conversation.
Have a nice break !

Perry

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@y...> wrote:
> Do you mind if I post it globally?
> Cass
> 
> Perry Coles <perrycoles@y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Cass, I've really racked my brain over this and am still not able
> to put it really succinctly.
> Maybe at some point I may do as you suggest or perhaps a collection of
> students could work together on such a project.
> 
> For me its a principle of honesty and openness in approach.
> I just can't see how real freedom of thought can exist without the
> freedom to write and express ideas without the fear of censorship.
> 
> I always remember Noam Chomky's famous quote :
> 
> "Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. 
> So was Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're
> in favour of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. 
> Otherwise, you're not in favour of free speech."
> 
> This rings so deeply and truly for me at any rate.
> Not an easy ideal but it seems to me if we want freedom of speech we
> need to be prepared to allow opinions "we despise" a voice.
> This "despised" voice may turn out be rubbish but it could also be the
> voice of reason and wisdom.
> 
> Perry
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote:
> > Dear Perry
> > Why dont you post it to all the TS's around the world, including
Adyar?
> > Cass
> > 
> > Perry Coles 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Hello All,
> > Thanks Jerry for taking the time to do this post it was very 
> > interesting .
> > Sorry to hear about your family members illness.
> > 
> > It seems that these historical issues need to really discussed openly 
> > in the Society.
> > I believe that open historical dialogue is important as it can start 
> > to clear away a lot of the underlying grievances and issues in the 
> > society by simply bringing them to light.
> > 
> > If the society does not want to be partisan to any particular ism it 
> > seems to me open discussion of some of this historical material needs 
> > to be discussed in lodges and branches and through published articles 
> > allowing for different perspectives and points of view.
> > 
> > If the reason for being of the Adyar Society is solely the promotion 
> > of the first object it needs to be open to differing historical and 
> > philosophical opinions and points of view in its publications.
> > 
> > If the reason Bailey material is not promoted is in order to avoid 
> > takeovers I can understand that but I would say if a knowledge of the 
> > historical reasons was more widely known by the membership it is able 
> > to help lectern any animosity that may arise from this issue.
> > 
> > The same could be said of Leadbeater and Annie Besant if members are 
> > actively encouraged study the history and made aware that there are 
> > differences in the teachings given by Leadbeater and those of HPB and 
> > her Mahatma's it allows both sides of the picture to be aired and 
> > given voice so that members and students may make up their own minds 
> > and explore both points of view. 
> > 
> > Perhaps I am politically naïve about this but it seems to me some 
> > kind of 5 or 10 year plan could be implemented to enable an 
> > evolutionary path for the Society to head down.
> > 
> > Rules of protocol and procedure could surely be drawn up to enable a 
> > more open dialogue without it descending into just a mudslinging 
> > match, but that allow genuine intellectual rigor and investigation to 
> > be carried on in its journals and publication regarding these 
> > politically delicate issues.
> > 
> > Comparison of the various theosophical writers perspectives comes 
> > under the 2nd object of the society done in a manner that takes into 
> > account the 1st object.
> > 
> > This does not mean that it avoids conflicting opinions but rather 
> > that it allows a variety of commentaries to be voiced and heard done 
> > in the spirit of investigation into life's mysteries and truths. That 
> > is true Brotherhood - Unity in Diversity.
> > 
> > Aspects of historical truth may be a little distressing to some 
> > however this is unavoidable due to the nature of human relationships 
> > and behavior.
> > 
> > I think a mature human being should be able to handle debate 
> > difference of opinion with someone and still be able to shake hands 
> > and have a cup of tea with them afterwards.
> > This is an ideal I know but isn't that what theosophy is all about.
> > As the Mahatmas say "try"
> > 
> > Perry
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
> > wrote:
> > > Hello Perry, Paul, Kristar and all,
> > > 
> > > A family member is seriously ill, so I'm afraid that I can't afford 
> > to 
> > > put much time into this interesting conversation. I would however, 
> > > recommend Joseph Ross' "Krotona of Old Hollywood vol. II" which has 
> > the 
> > > best collection of documents concerning this issue. He also tells 
> > me 
> > > that more documents will be in the forth coming vol. III. In the 
> > mean 
> > > time, I can make a few remarks that might clarify things a little:
> > > 
> > > Regarding the hostility towards Alice Evans and Foster Bailey, 
> > there 
> > > seems to be several issues involved, but the one that directly led 
> > to 
> > > their ousting from Krotona, Hollywood, was their campaign for a 
> > more 
> > > democratic community. At the time, the ES authority overshadowed 
> > > everything at Krotona in those days. The strain between the ES and 
> > TS 
> > > interests, eventuated in their separation in 1926, when the TS 
> > moved its 
> > > headquarters to Wheaton IL. and the ES to Ojai CA. Alice and 
> > Foster 
> > > were not alone in their effort to democratize Krotona. I have here 
> > a 
> > > letter from the late Astrologer, Dame Rudhyar, who was also at 
> > Krotona 
> > > at the time, and was a student of B.P. Wadia. According to 
> > Rudhyar, 
> > > both he and Wadia were supportive of Alice and Foster's efforts. 
> > > However, Rudhyar also pointed out in the same letter that his 
> > support 
> > > for AAB's cause did not necessarily mean support for their 
> > particular 
> > > philosophical ideas. One of the fiercest opponents', and one of 
> > the 
> > > people responsible for Alice and Foster's dismissal was L.W. 
> > Rogers. 
> > > 
> > > In Alice Bailey's Autobiography she also mentions resistance to her 
> > > statements that she had also been in contact and was a disciple of 
> > KH, 
> > > one of HPB's Masters. This, I think is another, but closely related 
> > > issue. When she gave voice to this belief in the ES, a great deal 
> > of 
> > > animosity was aroused. Keep in mind that the word in those days 
> > was 
> > > that one became a disciple only through the ES--therefore AAB's 
> > remark 
> > > indicating that she was under KH's guidance outside of the ES 
> > circles 
> > > created the threat of a competitive situation. 
> > > 
> > > AAB also mentions receiving receiving ES papers but, the papers she 
> > > received and used came from a source outside of the E.S.; a Richard 
> > > Prater, who according to AAB, gave her a copy of the instructions 
> > to use 
> > > as she liked. She did. AAB also mentions that she joined the ES in 
> > 1918, 
> > > so one could argue that she was under a pledge, concerning ES 
> > material, 
> > > regardless of where she received them. She also mentions in her 
> > > Autobiography that the instructions she received from Prater 
> > matched the 
> > > instructions which she had seen "elsewhere." This raises an 
> > ethical 
> > > issue which might be worth a discussion in itself.
> > > 
> > > Beyond this, AAB's writings include teachings that can be found in 
> > ES 
> > > material written between 1910 and 1920 (all of which would have 
> > been 
> > > available to her). Her obligations concerning this material also 
> > raises 
> > > interesting questions. On the other hand, if one believes AAB to be 
> > a 
> > > disciple of KH, and a channeler of DK, one can say that while she 
> > may 
> > > have seen the information first through ES sources, she also got it 
> > from 
> > > DK. 
> > > 
> > > Another interesting item is that I am aware of several former ES 
> > members 
> > > who were expelled because they were also involved with Meditation 
> > Mount, 
> > > an Alice Bailey type center also located at Ojai. As I understand 
> > it, 
> > > their crime was participating in Meditation Mount meditation 
> > practices, 
> > > not authorized by the ES. I would every much like to hear from 
> > anyone 
> > > who has any first hand information concerning these incidents or 
> > others 
> > > of a similar nature. These incidents do suggest to me that the ES 
> > still 
> > > has issues concerning Alice Bailey teachings. Perhaps some of you 
> > have 
> > > a different explanation.
> > > 
> > > --j
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > kpauljohnson wrote:
> > > 
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>Can anyone shine some light on this?
> > > >>
> > > >>Perry
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Hi Perry,
> > > >
> > > >Perhaps Jerry H-E can explain further, but I recall years ago that 
> > > >he explained the otherwise inexplicable hostility towards Bailey 
> > in 
> > > >the Adyar TS. Inexplicable, that is, because she seems to rile 
> > the 
> > > >powers that be more than Steiner, the Prophets, Purucker, etc. 
> > etc. 
> > > >whereas her teachings are actually more in line with Adyar/ES/CWL 
> > > >orthodoxy than all those other claimants to Mahatmic inspiration.
> > > >
> > > >That similarity is actually at the root of the hostility, because 
> > > >Bailey was an ES member and after leaving the TS incorporated 
> > secret 
> > > >Leadbeaterian doctrines into her writings. Thus she was regarded 
> > as 
> > > >a traitor to the ES and the Masters. Sounds very plausible, and 
> > > >since ES members are not going to tell us who's on their s--tlist 
> > > >and in what order, guesswork is all we have left.
> > > >
> > > >Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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