Theos-Talk Archives (February 2005 Message tt00555)

Dear Vladimir,

First, a suggestion: if you are addressing a particular listmember it 
might be best to copy it to that person. I just happened to open 
your first query; given the uninformative header there was no way I 
could have known it was addressed to me. Of course on the other hand 
putting someone's name in the header in caps in aggressive tones is 
not good either.

You asked:


> 
> Well, _if_ the book simply tries to trace HPB's teachers to 
some historical figures, whether successfully or not, I don't 
see why theosophical people should be so much upset.
> 
Initially, they weren't, at least to my knowledge. TMR got favorable 
reviews in the national section journals of England, France, 
Australia, as well as in The Quest and outside the Theosophical 
world. It had been out a year before the denunciations started. 
What upset people IMO wasn't so much the approach and conclusions but 
the IMPLICATIONS.
> 
> > Thirdly an attempt to understand how these historical mentors 
and sponsors were fictionalized in her writings, and the causes 
and consequences of this fictionalization.
> 
> Correct me if I misunderstood you, but this means you assert that 
HPB lied about her teachers. 

"Assert" somehow seems too aggressive but is not as bad as the 
term "claim" that really hostile Theosophists use as the verb. The 
truth from my POV is that I *conclude* from evidence that is 
presented with an invitation to others to draw *their own 
conclusions.* But your questions wasn't about lying about them only, 
it was about lying about *their nature.* Yes, she lied about their 
names and other details, and never even *pretended* that "Morya" 
and "Koot Hoomi" were their real names AFAIK. But as to whether she 
lied about their spiritual qualities etc. I'm agnostic because I have 
no way of knowing.

And in this case your answer to my first
> question looks weird:
> 
> >> 1. Are you trying to prove that HPB lied about the nature of 
her teachers, who really may have existed?
> >>
> > Of course not. At the outset my motivation was more the opposite
> > trying to prove that the Masters were not entirely fictional as 
her critics had long supposed.
> 
> So please finally answer "yes" or "no" to this simple question. Or 
you may say "I don't know" and that would mean "no". 

If "of course not" isn't a simple, final no I don't know what is. NO.
I am not now trying to prove anything. By the time I was writing for 
SUNY the "trying to prove" approach was what I most wanted to 
eliminate from what I had previously self-published. But when I was 
doing the research and original writing in the 1980s, I was "trying 
to prove" that the Masters were not entirely fictional. Concluding 
that they had been fictionalized was a byproduct of the investigation.

But then what did you
> mean by "fictionalization" above?
> 
Many or most of the characteristics attributed to various Masters in 
HPB's writings can be traced to real individuals she knew and was 
influenced by, but that being sworn to conceal their identities she 
threw in enough blinds to protect their privacy. 
> 
> >> Are you interested in transitory persons or in knowledge which 
is supposed to last much longer?
> >> 
> > False dilemma: both.
> 
> Sorry, I should have written "more interested". Anyway I have 
no objections here. And may I infer from this that theosophical 
teachings themselves are beyond the scope of your research?
> 
Not insofar as they can be examined in terms of the various 
influences discernable in her biography: Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, 
Spiritualism, Buddhism, Sufism, Kabbalah, etc. The teachings are 
used as historical evidence about HPB and her mentors and sponsors, 
or as influences on subsequent individuals (in the sequel to TMR, 
Initiates of Theosophical Masters.)

BTW with the Edgar Cayce readings I did try to present their 
doctrinal contents thoroughly before examining them for environmental 
influences. With Cayce, my approach was far less biographical than 
with HPB; an excellent and thorough biography of him was already in 
the works as I was writing my book. 

Hope that helps and thanks for asking,

Paul

PS-- I recommend Joscelyn Godwin's The Theosophical Enlightenment as 
invaluable companion reading to TMR.