Theos-Talk Archives (April 2005 Message tt00392)

Mr. Leadbeater was far more advanced and so he corrected many of the 
mistakes made by earlier writers. 
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap" <AnandGholap@A...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Jerry,
> > After Krishnamurti left TS, if all policies and focus had kept as 
it
> > was under leadership of Annie Besant then lost members would have
> > been replaced by new members and TS would have remained vibrant
> > organization.
> > My opinion is Krishnamuti's leaving could have only temporary
> > setback. Policies and focus should have been kept as they were
> > earlier.
> > My lodge has very young membership of very qualified people, total
> > 110 members. This despite management's policy of not advertizing.
> > Apart from that we have displayed Krishnamurti's photo in the 
Lodge.
> > Most members respect both Theosophy and consider Krishnamurti as
> > World-Teacher. They study mostly AB and CWL's books and like them
> > very much.
> > Fear that Krishnamurti's references in books and elsewhere cause
> > problems for Theosophical movement is not right. There are lot of
> > things to learn from how K was found, raised and how he later 
became
> > a great teacher as predicted almost twenty years in advance by Mr.
> > Leadbeater and Besant.
> > In entire history of TS golden days for the Theosophical Society 
> were
> > when Annie Besant was President.AB and CWL wrote very high quality
> > literature. That was received around the world very well. Result 
was
> > membership was all time high of more than 45000. If we continue to
> > focus on same literature it will again produce very positive 
> results,
> > this time on much greater scale because other conditions have 
become
> > much more favorable.
> > Anand Gholap
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap" 
> <AnandGholap@A...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Jerry,
> > > After Krishnamurti left TS, if all policies and focus had kept 
as 
> > it 
> > > was under leadership of Annie Besant then lost members would 
have 
> > > been replaced by new members and TS would have remained vibrant 
> > > organization. 
> > > My opinion is Krishnamuti's leaving could have only temporary 
> > > setback. Policies and focus should have been kept as they were 
> > > earlier.
> > > My lodge has very young membership of very qualified people, 
> total 
> > > 110 members. This despite management's policy of not 
advertizing. 
> > > Apart from that we have displayed Krishnamurti's photo in the 
> > Lodge. 
> > > Most members respect both Theosophy and consider Krishnamurti 
as 
> > > World-Teacher. They study mostly AB and CWL's books and like 
them 
> > > very much. 
> > > Fear that Krishnamurti's references in books and elsewhere 
cause 
> > > problems for Theosophical movement is not right. There are lot 
of 
> > > things to learn from how K was found, raised and how he later 
> > became 
> > > a great teacher as predicted almost twenty years in advance by 
> Mr. 
> > > Leadbeater and Besant. 
> > > In entire history of TS golden days for the Theosophical 
Society 
> > were 
> > > when Annie Besant was President.AB and CWL wrote very high 
> quality 
> > > literature. That was received around the world very well. 
Result 
> > was 
> > > membership was all time high of more than 45000. If we continue 
> to 
> > > focus on same literature it will again produce very positive 
> > results, 
> > > this time on much greater scale because other conditions have 
> > become 
> > > much more favorable.
> > > Anand Gholap 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
<jjhe@c...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Anand,
> > > > 
> > > > Perhaps, the best way to, at least, partially answer your 
> > question 
> > > is 
> > > > from an historical perspective. When Krishnamurti closed the 
> > Order 
> > > of 
> > > > the Star and left the Theosophical Society (1930), the 
> leadership 
> > > was, 
> > > > for a time left "flat footed" so to speak. Jinarajadasa's 
> > > comments in 
> > > > the ES material published at that time is quite revealing. 
CJ 
> > was 
> > > quite 
> > > > incredulous that after pretty much growing up with K. and 
with 
> > > Nitya and 
> > > > George Arundale forming sort of an inner group under CWL, 
> > > Krishnamurti 
> > > > was throwing all of that aside. K's early public talks after 
> > > leaving 
> > > > the TS were very discounting of the Teachings and of the 
> Masters. 
> > > > 
> > > > When George Arundale became President in 1934, he took the 
tack 
> > of 
> > > > ignoring Krishnamurti and tried to put the TS on a different 
> > > tract. 
> > > > Basically Arundale took the public stand that Theosophy is 
> > > everything 
> > > > and anything that the public wanted it to be. If the public 
> was 
> > > > interested in the arts, he made the arts Theosophy. If they 
> were 
> > > > interested in politics, he made politics Theosophy. It was a 
> > very 
> > > busy 
> > > > time of printing tens of thousands of pamphlets and flyers 
all 
> > > devoid of 
> > > > meningful content. It was also the beginning of the editing 
of 
> > > > Theosophical texts so as to remove references to K. and 
others 
> > > > embarrassments to the TS. While all of this reforming 
> Theosophy 
> > > for 
> > > > the public was going on, the ES was still very strong and 
> > > maintained 
> > > > their own traditions. So, there became two Theosophies. One 
> for 
> > > the 
> > > > public, and one for the insiders. In other words, for the 
> > public, 
> > > > Theosophy was anything they wanted it to be. The problem is 
> that 
> > > when 
> > > > Theosophy became everything, it did not escape the attention 
of 
> > > most 
> > > > enquirers that Theosophy is then--nothing. By the time 
> Arundale 
> > > died in 
> > > > 1945, the membership of the TS had fallen to the lowest 
level, 
> > and 
> > > has 
> > > > never really recovered.
> > > > 
> > > > When I joined TSA in 1963, Theosophy was not a popular 
> subject. 
> > > The TS 
> > > > members were all very elderly, and the Lodges were filled 
with 
> > > Victorian 
> > > > furniture. Most of the members who were the active workers 
> 20s 
> > > and 30s 
> > > > were still alive and made up most of the membership. I 
> remember 
> > > > Catherine Mays, Dora and Fritz Kunz, the Layton's etc. 
> Everyone 
> > > was 
> > > > excited when I joined because I was "fresh blood" as they 
> said. 
> > > But I 
> > > > was also of a very different generation than theirs. I would 
> > knock 
> > > them 
> > > > off balance by asking probing questions, challenged the 
status 
> > > quo. I 
> > > > saw nothing wrong with modern music and modern culture, while 
> on 
> > > the 
> > > > other hand, members believed that Jazz was created by Black 
> > > Magicians. 
> > > > You could imagine what they though of Rock n Roll. As the 
60's 
> > > > progressed into the psychedelic age, with hippies, Tim Leary, 
> > Alan 
> > > > Watts, and the Beatles, more people closer to my age began to 
> > drift 
> > > into 
> > > > TS, but the TSA leadership did not know how to deal with them.
> > > > 
> > > > I remember those early Lodge lectures. Old timers would give 
> > talks 
> > > > throwing out phrases like "the inner government of the world" 
> > > and "the 
> > > > path to the Masters" and "the Great White Brotherhood" but 
they 
> > > were 
> > > > singing to the choir. They did not bother to explain to 
newbys 
> > > what 
> > > > they were talking about. There was no viable educational 
> program 
> > > then. 
> > > > By the late 60's Headquarters responded by devising a series 
of 
> > > monthly 
> > > > letters for new members. By that time, I already was well 
into 
> > my 
> > > own 
> > > > reading and consequently found their letters, like their 
> > pamphlets 
> > > > rather devoid of meaningful content. 
> > > > 
> > > > When Dora Kunz became President in the late 70s she began to 
> > > initiate a 
> > > > policy to built up the Lodges and broke a long standing 
> tradition 
> > > by 
> > > > inviting young members who were talented but not ES members 
to 
> > > volunteer 
> > > > to work at Olcott. The membership under her approached to 
> nearly 
> > > 8,000 
> > > > at one point. When she left in 1986, the new management 
began 
> to 
> > > > dismantle and undermine everything she accomplished. The new 
> > tactic 
> > > was 
> > > > centralization. There was a lot of in-fighting and some 
nasty 
> > > > marginalization of some active members who did not agree with 
> the 
> > > new 
> > > > program. A lot of people left the TS in disgust, and at the 
> same 
> > > time, 
> > > > members from the Arundale days were passing away. When John 
> > Algeo 
> > > > became President, TSA membership dropped to under 4,000 at 
one 
> > > > point--about 1/2 of the maximum membership under Dora Kunz. 
> > > > 
> > > > So, what you have now in TSA is a general public, most of 
whom 
> do 
> > > not 
> > > > belong to a Lodge and do not have the support of a study 
group 
> > for 
> > > the 
> > > > study of Theosophy. The classic texts are available, but 
they 
> > are 
> > > in 
> > > > an edited form. For those interested in history, there is 
> > a "party 
> > > > line" history that is taught, but it is not very 
comprehensive--
> > and 
> > > very 
> > > > misleading. While TSA is beginning to promote Study Courses, 
> > what 
> > > they 
> > > > teach is a very sanitized version of Theosophy. It is what 
> they 
> > > want 
> > > > the members to know, and nothing more. 
> > > > 
> > > > This is not a complete answer, but I hope it gives you a 
> > > direction. 
> > > > Perhaps, in future discussions, we can develop some of the 
> themes 
> > > which 
> > > > I only hinted at here.
> > > > 
> > > > Best
> > > > Jerry
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Anand Gholap wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >Jerry,
> > > > >What could be the reasons according to you for members not 
> > having 
> > > > >much knowledge of Theosophy?
> > > > >Anand Gholap
> > > > >
> > > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
> <jjhe@c...> 
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>Anand,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>He we agree. I also believed that books should be 
reprinted 
> as 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >they 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>were left by the authors. I would not even bother to 
change 
> > the 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >English 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>spellings. However, I don't have any occult reasons for 
this 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >opinion. 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>I simply believe that authors ought to be allowed to stand 
or 
> > > fall 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >based 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>upon what they actually wrote. I have to hand it to ULT 
> for 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >being the 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>only Theosophical organization which reprinted Blavatsky's 
> and 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >Judge's 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>writing in their original form, while other organizations 
> were 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >changing 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>them or allowing them to go out of print. Of course, ULT 
did 
> > not 
> > > > >>reprint Besant and Leadbeater's writings, but that would 
have 
> > > been 
> > > > >>outside of their mission statement to have done so. 
> > > > >>
> > > > >>There was an excellent article done a few years ago by 
> Gregory 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >Tillett 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>for the Theosophical History journal which reviewed the 
> changes 
> > > the 
> > > > >>Adyar TS had made in Besant's and Leadbeater's books over 
the 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >years. 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>The article was reprinted in the ACT newsletter. It would 
be 
> > > nice 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >if 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>Drs Tillett and Santucci would permit this article to be 
put 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >online. I 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>think it is a very important article, because, people who 
buy 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >current 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>editions of their books are rarely aware that they have 
been 
> > > edited 
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >in 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>any significant way. 
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Jerry
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Anand Gholap wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Jerry,
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>As you see, I did not say that this material *contains* 
> > > writings 
> > > > >>>> 
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >of AB 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>> 
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>and CWL, but is based upon their ideas and uses their 
> > > terminology.
> > > > >>>> 
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> 
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>My opinion on this is books should be printed exactly as 
> they 
> > > > >>>originally appeared without abridgement. For printing 
> largest 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >edition 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>of the book should be taken. e.g. Masters and the Path was 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >enlarged by 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>Mr. Leadbeater himself and so for printing this largest 
> > edition 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >should 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>be taken. Only spelling may be changed to suit current US 
> > > English. 
> > > > >>>e.g. realisation (old British) would become realization. I 
> am 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >totally 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>against making more changes. 
> > > > >>>For making study course also original books of Annie 
Besant 
> > and 
> > > > >>>Leadbeater, written in their own language, should be 
> > > recommended. 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >Not 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>only English of AB and CWL is among the best even by 
today's 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >standard 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>but there are occult reasons for recommending their 
original 
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >writing. 
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >>>Anand Gholap
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> 
> > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >