Theos-Talk Archives (February 2006 Message tt00447)

Thank you, Dallas,

As usual you provide the difinitive information. 

All the best,
Adelasie

On 20 Feb 2006 at 7:23, W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote:

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> 
> T S STARTED .DOC
> =================
> 
> 
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>                 CHRONOLOGY  1875 -78
> 
> 
> 
>               NOTES ON THE ORIGINAL MINUTES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL
>               SOCIETY.
> 
>                                    SOURCES:
>                         PATH, Vol. 10, p. 55,  May 1894.
>                         THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, Vol. 1, p. 95-6--(Olcott
>                         on) OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol.
>                         1,p.114-18,121-2,126-133;137, OLD DIARY
>                         LEAVES, Vol. 7, p. 326.          
> 
> 
> 
>           [  Start with Mr. Judge's THE T S AND ITS BASIS,   J Art II
>           156 ]
> From AUSTRAL THEOSOPHIST, June 1894 ]
> 
>           "As one of those who helped to form the T S, I may claim to
>           speak
> with personal knowledge of the facts, ...
> 
> 
> 
>  SEPT 7th 1875
> 
> "1.   At a meeting held in the rooms of H.P.Blavatsky, 46 Irving
> Place, New York City, Sept. 7, 1875, it was agreed to form a Society
> for the purpose of Occult Study.  Upon motion of William Q. Judge,
> Henry S. Olcott was elected Chairman of this meeting, and upon motion
> of H.S.Olcott, William Q. Judge was elected Secretary of the same. 
> Adjourned to September 8, 1875...this is ascertained as the facts by
> those who were present. 		(CWB, Vol. 1, 122)
> 
>               NOTE:
> 
>               Col. Olcott, in OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, p. 118,
>               remarks on
> this event from memory as follows: (he) "wrote on a scrap of paper:  
> "Would it not be a good thing to form a Society for this kind of study
> ?"--and gave it to Judge.  H.P.B. read the note and nodded assent." 
> 
> [He also makes mention of this on p.114 of his book. OLD DIARY LEAVES
> (Olcott) Vol. I
>               (CWB, Vol. 1, p. 473, 122-123)
> 
>               Since Col. Olcott wrote OLD DIARY LEAVES, largely from
>               memory,
> some discrepancies have been observed by historians, these will be
> found chronicled in 	CWB Vol. I, pp. 72-3, 94, 121, 123-4.  
> 
>      H.P.B. later narrated this event to Mrs. A. Besant, who then
>      reported
> it in the opposite sequence:  she [HPB] having originated the idea,
> and then, having a note suggesting the formation of a society passed
> through Judge to Olcott.
>   (see LUCIFER, Vol. 12, p. 105, April 1893).  
> 
> There is no question but Mr. Judge was one of the three founders of
> the Theosophical Society who remained with it.
> 
> 
> 
>  SEPT 8th 1875
> 
> 2.   Pursuant to adjournment, a meeting was held at the same place
> Sept. 8, 1875.  It is with this meeting that the minute book begins. 
> Upon motion of William Q. Judge it was voted that H.S.Olcott take the
> Chair, and upon motion it was voted that William Q. Judge act as
> Secretary.  Upon request of the Chair, sixteen persons handed their 
> names to the Secretary, as agreeing to found and belong to such a
> society.  A committee of four, including the Chairman, was appointed
> "to draft a constitution and by-laws and to report the same at the
> next meeting."  Adjourned to Monday, Sept. 13, 1875, at the same
> place.   (PATH Vol. 9, p. 1 - facsimile;  CWB, Vol. 1, p. 123-5) 
> 
> 
>  SEPT 13TH 1875
> 
>          3.   Pursuant to adjournment, a meeting was held Sept. 13,
>          1875.
> H.S.Olcott acted as Chairman and C. Southern as Secretary.  The
> Committee on "Preamble and By-laws" reported progress.  It was
> resolved that the name of the society be "THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY". 
> The Chair appointed a committee to select meeting rooms.  "Several new
> members were nominated and upon motion those persons were added to the
> list of Founders."  The meeting adjourned subject to the call of the
> Chair.
> 
> 
>  OCTOBER 16 1875
> 
>          4.   Pursuant to a Notice dated at New York, Oct. 13, 1875,
>          signed
> Henry S. Olcott, President pro tem., a meeting was held at 206 W 38th
> St., Oct. 16, l875, "to organize and elect officers."  Eighteen
> persons were present.  The report of the Committee on "Preamble and
> By-laws" was laid on the table and ordered printed.  The meeting was
> adjourned  to October 30th l875, at the same place.  H.S.Olcott was
> Chairman, and  J. S. Cobb, Secretary,
> 
> 
> 
>  OCTOBER 30 1875
> 
>          5.   October 30, 1875, the Society met pursuant to
>          adjournment.
> Mott Memorial Hall, 64 Madison Ave., New York City was selected as the
> Society's meeting place.  By-laws were adopted, but with the proviso 
> that the "Preamble" should be revised by a committee and then
> published as the "Preamble of the Society."  Officers were elected as
> follows:   President, Henry S. Olcott;  Vice-Presidents, Dr. S.
> Pancoast and  G .H .Felt; Corresponding Secretary, Mme. H.P.Blavatsky;
>  Recording  Secretary, John Storer Cobb;  Treasurer, Henry J. Newton; 
> Librarian,  Charles Southeran; Councilors, Rev. J .H. Wiggin,  R. B.
> Westbrook,  LL.D.,  Mrs. Emma Hardinge Britten;  C E. Simmons, M.D.
> and Herbert D. Montachesi;  Counsel to the Society, William Q. Judge. 
> Adjourned to      November 17, 1875. ....
>                  PATH, VOL. 10, P. 55-60;
>                  CWB, Vol. I, p. 122 - 125; 150; 193; 245-6; 375-8;
>                  379-84;
> 
> 
> 
>         NOTE
> 
>               Mme. Blavatsky was by this time (1875) engaged in the
>               writing
> of ISIS UNVEILED.  Mr. Judge's brother, John, was of help in preparing
> the manuscript for the printers.  Mr. Judge's participation is not
> specified in existent records I have read.  DTB.  
> 
>               HPB invited Mr. Judge to help her in 1884 at Enghien,
>               (WQJ
> ART. ULT I 468) :  "...while I at her request carefully read over,
> sitting in the same room, Isis Unveiled, making indices at the foot of
> the page, as she intended to use it in preparing the Secret Doctrine."
> 
> 
>              In THE COLLECTED WORKS OF H.P.BLAVATSKY, VOL. I p. 406 we
> are told by the editor that the diaries of HPB for the years 1875-77
> "mysteriously disappeared" in Adyar.  
> 
> The diary for 1878 find Mr. Judge mentioned several times as a visitor
> to HPB in the latter part of the year: [  August 5th and 6th (p. 409);
>  Oct 18 (p.413);  Oct. 30 (p.416);  Nov. 12  (p.420);  Dec.
> 3-4(p.425);  Dec. 5 (p.426);  Dec. 7 (p.427);  Dec. 11 (p.429);  Dec.
> 13-15. COLL. WKS. B, Vol I, p. 430.]
> 
>   On December 17th. 1878 Mme. Blavatsky and Col. Olcott boarded a
> steamer to sail via. England, for India;  Mr. Judge remained in New
> York. 
> 
>  On Dec. 19th. 1879 (p.433, C W B)  Mr. Judge visited them on board
> the steamer prior to its actual departure, while it was still anchored
> inside the bar of the harbor waiting for the tide.
> 
> 
> 
>  DECEMBER 17 1878 to FEBRUARY 16 1879
> 
> 
>          9.   In the year 1878 H.P.Blavatsky and H.S.Olcott were
>          appointed
> under a formal Resolution of the Theosophical Society dated------- a
> "Committee of the Theosophical Society" to visit foreign countries and
> report."  The Theosophist for Oct. 1879, Vol. 1, #1, p. 1, 1st item,
> says: "For the convenience of future reference, it may as well be
> stated here that the Committee, sent to India by the Theosophical
> Society, sailed from New York Dec. 17th l878, and landed in Bombay,
> Feb. 16, 1879, having passed two weeks in London on the way."  	(The
> THEOSOPHIST,  Jan. 1880, Vol. 1, p.95).
> 
> 
> =================================================================
> 
> 
> 
>     T  S  STARTED 
> 
> 
> From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins
> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:53 PM
> To
> Subject: Re: 		TS natal chart and its implications
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I recall HPB writing that the September chart is the real birth chart.
>  The November inaugural address chart would be the chart for when the
> TS became a public organization.  
> 
> Best
> 
> Jerry
> 
> ==============================================
> 
> adelasie wrote:
> 
> Dear Vladimir,
> 
> The chart drawn for 8 pm, September 8, 1875, is certainly more 
> encouraging than the one for the same time, November 17 of the same
> year. One might wonder how an entity of the latter date would survive
> at all. Does anyone have any more specific data for the founding of
> the TS? It seems likely that there would be an official chart for the
> founding, considering what the organization is. 
> 
> Adelasie
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> On 18 Feb 2006 at 13:19, Vladimir wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Saturday, February 18, 2006, 5:46:41 AM, adelasie wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Does Cranston give a time for the September date?
> 
> 
> No. Actually the date might be considered even Sep.7, because then
> 
> 
> ...Madame  Blavatsky's  sprightly  evening  chatter  and  her reported
> magical  feats  continued  to draw groups of intelligent people to her
> rooms. Among those thus attracted was Mr. George H. Felt, who had made
> some  careful studies in phases of Egyptology. He was asked to lecture
> on these subjects and on the 7th of September, 1875, a score of people
> had  gathered  in  H.P.B.'s  parlors  to hear his address on "The Lost
> Canon  of  Proportion  of  the  Egyptians."  
> 
> Dr. Seth Pancoast, a most
> erudite  Kabbalist  was  present,  and  after  the  lecture he led the
> discussion  to  the  subject  of  the  occult  powers  of  the ancient
> magicians.  Mr. Felt said he had proven those powers and had with them
> evoked  elemental  creatures  and  "hundreds of shadowy forms." As the
> tense  debate  proceeded, acting on an impulse, 
> 
> Col. Olcott wrote on a
> scrap  of  paper, which he passed over to Madame Blavatsky through the
> hands of Mr. W. Q. Judge, the following: "Would it not be a good thing
> to  form  a Society for this kind of study?" She read it and indicated
> assent.
> 
> http://www.blavatskycardiff.care4free.net/The%20Theosophical%20Society
> %20gets%20off%20the%20Ground.htm
> 
> 
> But the Meeting Minutes containing the proposal is dated 
> 
>   Sep.8,1975 –
> 
> a hand-written page is reproduced in the book.
> 
> 
>  Vladimir
> 
> =====================================
> 
>  see	Blavatsky:  COLLECTED WORKS   Vol.  1
> 
> ==================================
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of adelasie Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:47 PM To:
> theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World TS natal chart and
> its implications
> 
> Hi Vladimir,
> 
> Does Cranston give a time for the September date?
> 
> Adelasie
> 
> On 17 Feb 2006 at 21:35, Vladimir wrote:
> 
> > Friday, February 17, 2006, 5:16:17 PM, kpauljohnson wrote:
> > 
> > > Here are a couple of post from a dozen years ago, discussing the
> > > November 17th chart for the TS:
> > 
> > Sorry,  didn't  look  at  the  chart, just want to make a side
> > remark: according  to  Cranston's  book  on  HPB's  life,  the TS
> > was actually organized  Sep.8,1875,  whereas  on Nov.17th Olcott
> > gave his inaugural speech.
> > 
> > Would  you  please  remake  the  chart  for  this date and produce
> > new implications? :)
> > 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> >  Vladimir
> > 
> =================================================
> 
> 
> 
> LEGAL STATUS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY 
> 
>  Key.  p. 309-10
> 
> 
> 
> THE LEGAL STATUS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY.
> The following Official Report, on which was granted a Decree of In to
> the St. Louis Theosophical Society, is art important document, as
> putting on record the view taken of the Theosophical Society—after a
> careful examination of witnesses on oath—by an American Court of Law.
> 
> First—The petitioner is not a religious body, I report this negative
> finding for the reason that the word “Theosophical” contained in
> petitioners’ name conveys a possible religious implication. 
> 
> The statutory phrase “society formed for religious purposes” applies,
> I suppose, only to an organization formed in part for worship, worship
> being an individual act involving adoration and perhaps emotional
> power, both being of necessity individual acts, or else to an
> organization formed for a propagation of a religious faith. 
> 
> Merely to teach a religion as one may teach algebra, is not, I think,
> a religions work, as the word “religious” is used in the Statute and
> the Constitution. A man may occupy a collegiate chair of Professor of
> Religions and as such teach the tenets of many religions. These
> different religions being variant and antagonistic, the Professor
> could not by any possibility worship under all. Nay, he might even be
> irreligious. Hence, merely teaching religions is not a religions work
> in the statutory sense. 
> 
> It will be noted that in art. 2 of this society’s constitution, the
> word religion is used in the plural. To teach religions is
> educational, not religious. “To promote the study of religions” is in
> part to promote the study of the history of man. I add the subordinate
> finding that the society has no religious creed and practices no
> worship. 
> 
> Second—The petitioner proposes to promote the study of literature and
> sciences. These objects are expressly within the terms of the Statute.
> 
> 
> Third—Cognate with the last object is that of  investigating
> “unexplained laws of nature and psychical powers latent in man.” These
> two phrases, taken in their apparent meaning, are unobjectionable. But
> there is reason to believe that they form a meaning other than the
> apparent one. 
> 
> The court will take notice of the commonly accepted meaning of the
> word “Theosophy.” Though I am ignorant of Theosophy, I think it is
> supposed to include among other things manifestations and phenomena,
> physical and psychical, that are violative of the laws now known by
> physicists and metaphysicians, and perhaps not explained or claimed to
> be explained or understood even by Theosophists themselves. 
> 
> In this group may be included Spiritualism, mesmerism, clairvoyance,
> mind-healing, mind-reading, and the like. I took testimony on this
> question, and found that while a belief in any one of these sorts of
> manifestations and phenomena is not required, while each member of the
> society is at liberty to hold his own opinion, yet such questions form
> topics of inquiry and discussion, and the members as a mass are
> probably believers individually in phenomena that are abnormal and in
> powers that are superhuman as far as science now knows. 
> 
> It is undoubtedly the right of any citizen to hold whatever opinions
> he pleases on these subjects, and to endeavour at his pleasure to
> investigate the unexplained and to display the latent. 
> 
> But the question here is: Shall the Court grant a franchise in aid of
> such endeavour? 
> 
> Voodooism is a word applied to the practices of guileful men among the
> ignorant and superstitious who inflict impostures upon guileless men
> among the ignorant and superstitious. No Court would grant a franchise
> in furtherance of such practices. 
> 
> The Court then will stop to inquire into the practices and perhaps the
> reputableness of the enterprise which seeks judicial aid. I am not
> meaning to make a comparison between voodooism and this group of
> phenomena which for convenience (though I know not whether accurately)
> I will call occultism. I only take voodooism as a strong case to show
> the Court ought to inquire. 
> 
> If we now inquire into occultism we shall find that it has been
> occasionally used, as is reported, for the purposes of imposture. But
> this goes for nothing against its essential character. Always and
> everywhere bad men will make a bad use of anything for selfish ends. 
> 
> The object of this society, whether attainable or not, is undeniably
> laudable, assuming that there are physical and psychical phenomena
> unexplained, and that Theosophy seeks to explain them. Assuming that
> there are human powers yet latent, it seeks to discover them. It may
> be that absurdities and impostures are in fact incident to the nascent
> stage of its development. 
> 
> As to an understanding like that of occultism, which asserts powers
> commonly thought superhuman, and phenomena commonly thought
> supernatural, it seemed to me that the Court, though not assuming to
> determine judicially the question of their verity, would, before
> granting to occultism a franchise, inquire whether at least it had
> gained the position of being reputable or whether its adherents were
> merely men of narrow intelligence, mean intellect, and omnivorous
> credulity. 
> 
> I accordingly took testimony on that point, and find that a number of
> gentlemen in different countries of Europe, and also in this country,
> eminent in science, are believers in occultism. Sir Edward Bulwer
> Lytton, a writer of large and varied learning, and of solid intellect,
> is asserted to have been an occultist, an assertion countenanced by at
> least two of his books. 
> 
> The late President Wayland, of Brown University, writing of abnormal
> mental operations as shown in clairvoyance, says: “The subject seems
> to me well worthy of the most searching and candid examination. It is
> by no means deserving of ridicule, but demands the attention of the
> most philosophical inquiry.” 
> 
> Sir William Hamilton, probably the most acute and, undeniably, the
> most learned of English metaphysicians that ever lived, said at least
> thirty years ago: “However astonishing, it is now proved beyond all
> rational doubt that in certain abnormal states of the nervous organism
> perceptions are possible through other than the ordinary channels of
> the senses.” 
> 
> By such testimony Theosophy is at least placed on the footing of
> respectability. Whether by further labour it can make partial truths
> complete truths, whether it can eliminate extravagances and purge
> itself of impurities, if there are any, are probably questions upon
> which the Court will not feel called upon to pass. 
> 
> I perceive no other feature of the petitioners’ constitution that is
> obnoxious to legal objection, and accordingly I have the honour to
> report that I show no cause why the prayer of the petitioners should
> not be granted.
>      AUGUST  W. ALEXANDER,
>      Amicus Curæ.
> 
> 
> 
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