From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@comcast.net>
Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Re: CWL and the"Collective Adepthood"
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:14:06 -0000
Carlos,
You have done it again. While saying that you do not mean CWL
believed he was an Adept, you continue on to say 'he fancied himself
a fourth degree initiate'. I am not sure what the difference is, but
whatever the difference, CWL never made either of these claims and
you have no evidence to support that he did it. (By the way, how do
you know he was not a disciple? Do you claim to have contact with
some Master from whom you got this information?)
As for his being silent publicly about the episode, he was too polite
a person to contradict in public Annie Besant whom he respected and
he also did not wish to split the society any further. However, to
anyone who questioned him in private (like Krishmurthi or Lutyens),
he did not hesitate to say that he did not consider himself an Adept.
Since we have this information from Lutyens, I don't see any reason
for you to accuse him of being part of this 'Collective Adepthood' -
your real aim is to discredit his writings by making such an
accusation.
Regards,
Dave
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
> Thanks, again (see below).
>
> I never said CWL believed or announced he was an Adept.
>
> He only fancied, it seems, to have the fourth great initiation,
while in
> fact he was no disciple any longer, was never a member of HPB's
Esoteric
> School, and started his fancies about discipleship and clairvoyance
in the
> inner circle of Mr. Sinnett during mediumnistic séances in London.
>
> CWL was involved in the "Collective Adepthood" announcement made by
Mrs. A.
> Besant not because he believed that, but because his name was
included among
> the false "ADEPTS".
>
> He REMAINED involved in the episode because he kept quiet and did
not
> publically explain that he was not an ADEPT.
>
> If, say, someone announces that you are an ADEPT, Dave, and you
do not
> clearly explain you are NOT, you remain involved in the episode.
>
>
> Best regards, Carlos.
>
>
> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>
>
> >From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Theos-World Re: Daniel, Dave and Besant's Adepthood
> >Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:34:31 -0000
> >
> >Carlos,
> >
> >I am not suggesting that the episode did not occur or that Annie
> >Besant did not announce that she and others had attained Adepthood
(I
> >believe it was the fourth initiation she claimed).
> >
> >All I am saying is that CW Leadbeater had nothing to do with it.
(If
> >Besant claimed that Leadbeater was also an Adept, that is not his
> >fault). Besant was really getting senile at that time, so I
> >personally think, she can be forgiven (not so Arundell).
> >
> >If Mary Lutyens told you privately that CWL was involved in the
> >episode, we only have your word for it (and you seem to have an axe
> >to grind).
> >
> >If she wrote it somewhere, I would like the reference.
> >
> >I have read specifically that CWL was not involved in the episode
and
> >that he told Krishnamurthi that as far as he knew, Krishnamurthi
was
> >the only Adept around at that time. I read this either in one of
Mary
> >Lutyens books or maybe in Radha Sloss's book (neither of whom would
> >want to defend CWL particularly).
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
> ><carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for your stimulating posting.
> > >
> > > I see there seems to be an inner identity between your views and
> >the views
> > > of other persons with the same initial letter in their names:
> >David (Green)
> > > and Daniel (Caldwell). By some sort of coincidence, you came in
the
> >debate
> > > immediately after Daniel's "disappearance". Friends in need,
> >friends
> > > indeed? I respect that. There is something sacred about
friendship.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you can convince Daniel Caldwell, or David Green, to
> >explain
> > > whether David Green was, or not, invented as a false person by
> >Daniel
> > > Caldwell.
> > >
> > > As you know, truthfulness is really important, isn't it? I will
> >rely on you
> > > in that. Paul Johnson's texts on Daniel's possible "secret agent
> >work" to
> > > cause harm to theosophical groups remain unanswered and
> >unchallenged so far,
> > > which is not good for Daniel. He should clarify facts out of
> >respect for
> > > all of us, here at Theos-Talk.
> > >
> > > Let's see now the connection between Annie Besant's "Adepthood"
and
> > > Arundale's, and
> > > Wedgwood's, and Leadbeater's.
> > >
> > > Well, Mary Lutyens (a historian, not a pseudonym) is the
source of
> >that
> > > information and her books were not contradicted by leaders or
> > > thinkers/historians at Adyar.
> > >
> > > It was Mary Lutiens who narrated the episode. Not me.
> > >
> > > Annie Besant, in August 1925, humbly announced she had attained
the
> >FIFTH
> > > GREAT
> > > INITIATION and included several others in the annoncement,
> >including
> > > Arundale, Leadbeater and Wedgwood.
> > >
> > > Crazy years those were, in which a few "initiates" went mad soon
> >after
> > > attaining Adepthood.
> > >
> > > Your commentaries?
> > >
> > > Dear Dave, I hope you help us find the truth about the history
of
> >the
> > > theosophical moment,
> > > so that we can move on and far beyond all this network of lies
and
> > > illusions. I am sure you can help us in that. You see, it's
never
> >late. If
> > > you are a friend of Mr. John Algeo's, why not telling him he is
> >still in
> > > time to change for the better?
> > >
> > > Law of Karma is on the side of Truth Eternal! And there is
> >nothing outside
> > > Karma Law.
> > >
> > > Peace to all beings,
> > >
> > > Best & fraternal regards, Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@>
> > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: Theos-World Re: The Origin of Annie Besant's Adepthood
> > > >Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:54:33 -0000
> > > >
> > > >Senor Carlos is at it again. This time he is trying to
discredit
> >CWL
> > > >by insinuating that CWL had something to do with Annie
> > > >Besant's 'Adepthood' announcement - that CWL was really
> >the 'Origin'.
> > > >
> > > >In fact, Leadbeater had nothing to do with it at all. The
Adepthood
> > > >story was concocted by George Arundell while Leadbeater was in
> > > >Australia. George may have thought it up himself or got it from
> >this
> > > >Wedgwood person. In any case, Leadbeater did not believe the
story.
> > > >When Krishnamurthi questioned him about it, Leadbeater said
(in so
> > > >many words) that Krishnamurthi was the only Arhat he was aware
of
> > > >(that Krishnamurthi was indeed an Arhat has been confirmed by
> >others).
> > > >
> > > >To suggest that CWL was somehow responsible for this sorry
episode
> >is
> > > >spreading lies about someone who has done a lot to advance the
> >cause
> > > >of Theosophy albeit by unconventional means. Mr. Carlos needs
to
> >read
> > > >his sources more carefully and stop making connections (between
> > > >Leadbeater and Arundell's Adepthood) that don't exist.
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >
> > > >Dave
> > > >
> > > >(I had better get out of here quick, Mr Psionics is coming
after
> >me :-
> > > >))
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso
aveline"
> > > ><carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > FRIENDS,
> > > > >
> > > > > below, a letter to a fellow truth-seeker whow wrote to me
> > > >complaining
> > > > > about the significant number of controversies in the
> >Theosophical
> > > >Movement.
> > > > > Carlos.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Friend,
> > > > >
> > > > > Brotherly friendship and understanding need freedom and
> >diversity.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is important that you read Letter 120, Mahatma Letters,
> > > >Chronological
> > > > > Edition, on the London Lodge Crisis. (I do not remember the
> >Letter
> > > >number in
> > > > > non-cronological editions).
> > > > >
> > > > > It was written by a Mahatma after consulting with his own
Master
> > > >about
> > > > > theosophical controversies. The essence of the Letter is
that,
> > > >according
> > > > > to the Masters, the contrast of views and opinions,
> > > > > once they are sincere, must be freely exercized and even
> >preserved
> > > >from
> > > > > hypocritical make-belief and outer harmony.
> > > > >
> > > > > It coincides with a famous poem written by English poet
> >Alexander
> > > >Pope,
> > > > > which says (and I quote the idea, no the words themselves):
> > > > >
> > > > > "Every disharmony is a harmony that you cannot understand
yet".
> > > > >
> > > > > So true harmony will never emerge from repressing diversity
and
> > > >true
> > > > > contrast in nature.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thought monoculture is as disastrous as agricultural
> >monoculture.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thought diversity in the mind world is as important as
> >biodiversity
> > > >in
> > > > > natural environment.
> > > > >
> > > > > The great treason, conscious or unconscious, promoted by CWL
> >and A.
> > > >Besant
> > > > > against the
> > > > > HPB Mission (a Mission, by the way, which is NOT limited
to the
> > > >19th
> > > > > century) was to create rituals as a way of establishing an
> > > >uniformity of
> > > > > thought under their own popish control.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, there is a difference between contrast, frankness,
> >dversity,
> > > >and
> > > > > hatred, enmity and the like.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is by puting on the table and freely examining the
failures
> >of
> > > >the
> > > > > movement as a whole (and
> > > > > occultly Adyar is NOT separated from the rest of the
movement),
> > > >that we will
> > > > > gradually eliminate all bitter feelings among us.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not have access to Internet from my Library, but I can
tell
> > > >tomorrow
> > > > > you the number of the Letter 120 in the other editions of
the
> > > >Mahatma
> > > > > Letters. Tell me if you want that.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, by the way, if you study the M. Letters you will see
that
> > > >CWL's
> > > > > writings have nothing to see
> > > > > with the Mahatmas' teachings.
> > > > >
> > > > > AND --- do you happen to know that CWL was never admitted
to
> >the
> > > >Esoteric
> > > > > School founded by H.P.B.?
> > > > >
> > > > > He received a couple of letters from the Mahatmas, yes, but
> >soon he
> > > >was out
> > > > > of focus. He never was admitted to the HPB's inner school.
> > > >Instead, he was
> > > > > busy having mediumnistic "chats" with imaginary Masters in
> > > >the 'inner
> > > > > circle' of Mr. A. P. Sinnett, in London. A. Besant also
took
> >part,
> > > >there,
> > > > > right after HPB's death. (See Mr. A.P. Sinnett Memoirs.)
And
> >soon
> > > >the
> > > > > nonsense began.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then CWL became the source of Mrs. A.Besant "contact" with
her
> >own
> > > >imaginary
> > > > > Masters.
> > > > >
> > > > > It was in this way that Besant finnally anounced, in 1925
that
> >she
> > > >had
> > > > > attained Adepthood, as
> > > > > I have documented here while illustrating the life of Mr.
James
> > > >Wedgwood,
> > > > > the founder of the Liberal Catholic Church and another
> > > >Adyar "Adept" in
> > > > > 1925. The inquestionable source is Mary Lutyens, J.
> > > >Krishnamurti's
> > > > > biographer.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's History. These are documented facts. As a source, A.P.
> > > >Sinnett was
> > > > > never questioned.
> > > > >
> > > > > He was international vice-president under Annie Besant, and
> >close
> > > >friends
> > > > > with CWL and her until he died.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have all the data and can bring them all here to you. I
> >believe
> > > >it is
> > > > > indeed important that we
> > > > > understand the origin of all the "clairvoyant" fancies in
order
> >to
> > > > > understand them and then to GET RID OF THEM.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope you have the patience to stand the "ugly truths" we
must
> > > >accept,
> > > > > examine and learn from, in order to go ahead to the next
step.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Facilite sua vida: Use o Windows Desktop Search e encontre
> >qualquer
> > > >arquivo
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
_________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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