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Re: Theos-World Re: To Jerry, on Pseudo Scholars

Mar 15, 2006 07:29 PM
by Jerry Hejka-Ekins


Dear Krsanna,

Thank you for this interesting post. I would appreciate any references you have to an English translation of the 1970 work, or summaries of it. Of course they, and you, are right about something like a continent leaving marks. Then again, the theory has changed remarkably since Fritz's '64 address and since '70 also. The new data and consequently the ideas have changed so much that the oceanographers changed the name of the theory to "plate tectonics." They now understand that it is not the continents that move, but the plates which the continents sit upon glide over a very hot intermediary layer between the plates and the core. They understand the mid-Atlantic ridge to be evidence for ocean floor spreading and the "ring of fire" around the Pacific basin as "subduction zones" where the continental plates return to the bowels of the earth, only to be reformed again through volcanic activity. Other evidence of plate movement is the island arcs most commonly found in the Pacific. The Hawaiian island chain is the best known example. They now understand that island arcs are formed by the motion of the continental plates over "hot spots." The overall theory seems to be pretty tight at the moment. That is, the main observations are accounted for.

Still, the Soviet finding of a land mass with 12,000 year old fresh water vegetation is a fascinating discovery, though, depending upon its exact location, could be accounted for by the last major ice age. The world's ocean depth, because of ice age cycles, vary by some 350 feet. They are near maximum right now. Also, the continents do rise and sink to a certain extent by other actions: the weight of glaciers, a strange "bulge" that has its own motion, and, in a more localized extent, earthquake activity.

I'm interested in knowing what you mean by rock "DNA." But the canary Islands and Iceland would have been part of a single land mass about 180 to 200 million years ago. There have been a lot of matches already made between the rocks on the Eastern coast of the Americans and the Western coast of Europe and Africa.
Best
Jerry






krsanna wrote:

I hope it's okay to interject into this discussion information about the mountain range that extends from Iceland in the north southerly through the mid-Atlantic. I've found some great Soviet research in that identifies between Iceland and the Canary Islands a land mass with fresh water vegetation carbon dated to about 10,000 BCE. This book was first printed in Moscow in 1970. Further, the Soviets found identical rock "DNA" in the sunken area as that found in Iceland.
The Soviet theory of continental formation was very different than the American theory of continental drift. (Perhaps some of the Russian members can provide more information on this.) The Soviet theory involved a metamorphosis of elements and believed that something as large as a continent "drifting" would leave marks of some kind. (It makes sense to me.) I'm not convinced that drift adequately explains the phenomena of continental drift. Research on continental formation currently in process in the U.S. may still rewrite text books.

As a Soviet publication, the book was never published in the U.S. I found it by searching on the internet: "Atlantis," by N.F. Zhirov. Soviet sciences were more open than America's, because they didn't have to seek approval of Christian voters. The result if that Americans conducted much research under cover of secret projects, such as experiments with psychics and psychic warfare. Uri Geller writes about some of his experiences with American research into psychism.
Best regards,
Krsanna


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> wrote:

Dear Cass,

OK, now I understand what you are saying. Yes, I agree that there
are
things HPB wrote that have become verified. One of the most extraordinary passages in the SD is about a mid-Atlantic mountain
range
that begins at Iceland, moves southwards, curves around Africa and
ends
at India. At the time, it was known that there was a mid-Atlantic
rise
in elevation, but not that was a mountain range. Possibly someone
could
have speculated that the rise could be mountain range. But there
was no
evidence one way of the other. Sometime early in the early 1900s
they
figured out that it was probably a mountain range, but they did
not know
how it ran. The fact that it runs the length of the Atlantic and
curves
around Africa was not discovered until 1957!
On the other hand, you might look at D.D. Kanga's "Where Theosophy
and
Science Meet" (written in 1938). Kanga tried to interpret the SD according to the then current science and ended up making a lot of misreadings. I also have a tape here of a talk that Fritz Kunz
gave in
1964, when the "Continental Drift" notion was first becoming
seriously
considered in this country. Fritz remarked that if Continental
Drift
proves to be correct, "then we may as well throw out the Secret Doctrine." I can read the SD today and spot numerous statements
which,
to my understanding, are supportive of Continental Drift. But
during
Kanga's time when the idea was all but unknown no one, that I am
aware,
understood those passages in that way.
This leads me to wonder all the more about the special nature of
the SD,
its writer and her teachers. It makes the book all the more
exciting.

Best
Jerry




Cass Silva wrote:

What is important for me is the information and not where or who
the information came from. Much of it is now starting to be verified by the sciences. Those ideas that were once thought of as Mumbo Jumbo have and will continue to become fact.


Cass Silva wrote:


What is important for me is the information and not where or who
the information came from. Much of it is now starting to be verified by the sciences. Those ideas that were once thought of as Mumbo Jumbo have and will continue to become fact.
Cheers
Cass
Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> wrote: Dear Cass,




Let us say, for argument's sake, that HPB, had reasons unknown
to us, but obviously affirmed by the Masters, to preserve their identity and whereabouts as "persona non gratis",while at the same time needing to acknowledge that the universal wisdom was directed and dictated by those same beings. What a task for anyone!



That appears to be just the case, in my opinion.




Has any scholar of theosophy discovered a "lie" within the works
given to the world, i.e. Isis and SD?


There is a lot of controversy about the accuracy and source of
HPB's
information. That is to be expected.



Isn't this the cogent point?


Why?




AS far as the bun fight over Tacoma etc, my humble and non
scholastic attitude is that the Poparisation of the TS is continuing and will polarise the society out of credible existence, as is the case in the rise and fall of the catholic church.



The way I like to express it is that the Theosophical
Organizations are
bound hand and foot by their own karma. I see the polarization
as the
outcome of that karma.

Best,
Jerry




Cass Silva wrote:




Let us say, for argument's sake, that HPB, had reasons unknown
to us, but obviously affirmed by the Masters, to preserve their identity and whereabouts as "persona non gratis", while at the same time needing to acknowledge that the universal wisdom was directed and dictated by those same beings. What a task for anyone!

Has any scholar of theosophy discovered a "lie" within the works
given to the world, i.e. Isis and SD?
Isn't this the cogent point?
AS far as the bun fight over Tacoma etc, my humble and non
scholastic attitude is that the Poparisation of the TS is continuing and will polarise the society out of credible existence, as is the case in the rise and fall of the catholic church.

No matter, the horse has already bolted, and the rider free at
last from all the petty struggles brought about my men who may believe their crusade is based on moral integrity, laughable.

Christianity has been arguing for 2000 years about its claim as
the one true religion, so those in what they consider powerful positions will be kept employed for many years to come, kicking up the dust.

Cass

carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote: Jerry,

Thanks for you interesting posting.

You say:

"I expected in your reply below to either supply quotes where
Paul did
indeed make such statements, and/or to comment upon my
discourse. Instead,
you come up with a quote where
Paul uses the word "charlatans" in connection to HPB and
Gurdjieff. Now,
liar and charlatan are two very different words with different
meanings."

I say:

My point, Jerry, is that Paul Johnson says that HPB lies or is
a charlatan.
The two words are applied to false persons. If you believe
charlatans do
not lie, well, my friend! It sounds like that difference
between "innocent"
and "not guilty". (By the way, Brazilian tribunals use the
word "innocent"
instead of "not guilty").

The issue is that Paul says, implies and suggests that HPB was
not truthful
or reliable. We may all use the words we prefer for that. There
are plenty
of them. The meaning is the same, though.

Besides, my point is NOT that Paul openly and firmly states HPB
is a fraud.
He follows Algeo's line. He suggests this is "a possibility
among others".

This kind of action is one of the most efficient forms of
active slander.
This is a form of slander in which the slander tries to avoid
being caught
as such. This has been used in Adyar TS since the false
accusations
against Judge in the 1890s.

When asked to clarify his position with regard to HPB's honesty
(which
should be no big deal!), Paul, the Historian, refuses to to
so, and gets
away from the debate, using the mask of a person with
offended
sensitivities.

Is this emotionalistic show a "scholarly attitude"? Not at all.

It is well-known, Jerry, that authentic scholars and
researchers do NOT
get away when their thesis are confronted.

Just the opposite. They take every opportunity to clarify their
facts, to
defend and to IMPROVE their viewpoints.

Only historians who are benefitting from authoritarian political
structures
will get nervous and bitter and reject clarifying their views.
Now, Adyar
TS structure, as you may know, is not too open-minded...

So this is the kind of "Historian" some Adyar leaders (not Ms.
Radha
Burnier) need, in order to avoid facing the consequences of
Leadbeater's
biography written by Gregory Tillett -- and other publications
which show
20th century pseudo-theosophy as it is.

Radha Burnier runs an authoritarian structure, to my view --
yes.

But she clearly disapproves the gossiping/libeling policy about
HPB, and
she will never -- as long as I know -- defend CW Leadbeater's
clairvoyance
and fancies. I hope you understand I am looking at the
context, in order
to understand the specific facts.

I am sorry if I did not discuss every point in your message
below. I hope I
addressed the main issues, though. Let me know if I did not.

Thank you very much for your openess of mind.


Best regards, Carlos.










From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World To Carlos Cardoso Aveline--some thoughts
and a reply

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:01:10 -0800

Dear Carlos,

I changed your subject heading out of respect for Paul, who has
stated

on several occasions that he does not like his name displayed
in subject

headings. It is just a matter of respecting the preferences of
others. I replaced the heading with your name, which, of
course, you

are free and welcome to change.

Because of my busy schedule, I have become more selective
concerning

which postings I read and which I reply to. I try to reply to
those

posts which I feel that I can make a constructive contribution
to the

writer and/or interested readers. To properly do this, I have
to take

the time to read (sometimes several times) the post, consider
what they

are saying (and implying), and then formulate an answer which I
hope

will move the topic along. This takes time. But I believe that
these

kind of posts raises the overall quality of a discussion board
and is

helpful to others. On the other hand, to argue for the sake of
argument

is, for me, a waste of energy and time. It is my hope that my
correspondents take the same time and consideration to reply to
my

messages to them. Now, regarding our discussion.

My last response to you was concerning your statement that Paul
wrote

that HPB "lied." Here again is the statement you made, which I
replied:




When Paul Johnson writes that she lied, or implies that she
lied, that



she was a Spy, etc. (which she denied vehemently and
unendingly) he is
saying that her philosophy is the philosophy of a liar, the
philosophy of a




fraudulent woman.




I replied that I did not recall Paul writing that HPB lied. I
then went

into a carefully considered discourse about HPB's style of
communication

and how it is so often misunderstood. I expected in your reply
below to

either supply quotes where Paul did indeed make such
statements, and/or

to comment upon my discourse. Instead, you come up with a quote
where

Paul uses the word "charlatans" in connection to HPB and
Gurdjieff.

Now, liar and charlatan are two very different words with
different

meanings. My Webster's Dictionary defines the word in
part: "one who

prates much in his own favor, and makes unwarranted
pretensions..."

This definition seems to fit well the quote you gave me below.
It does

not necessarily imply lying, but only self-promotion. At any
rate, this

is an entirely different discussion. If this is your method of
discussion, that is, shifting the terms of the discussion with
new

arguments instead of responding to my discourse, then I must
reply by

saying that I frankly cannot afford the time, nor do I have an
inclination to play this kind of game. With this said, I will
assume

that you misunderstood and will more carefully re-read my last.
In the

mean time, I will respond to your statements below:

I re-read the 1987 Theosophical History Pamphlet and noted the
quotes

given below. Your sentence fragment "had fraudulent aspects"
Appears

once on page three. In context, the quote reads:

"The Sufi doctrine of instrumental teaching demonstrates a
possible

explanation of the apparently 'outrageous' and 'fraudulent"
aspects of

H.P.B. and Gurdjieff." He then goes on to explain what the Sufi
doctrine

of instrumental teaching is. Note that Paul had
put "outrageous" and

"fraudulent" in quotes. That means that he is quoting someone
elses'

use of the terms. Also, the qualifier "apparently" indicates
that

whoever he is quoting, is not saying that aspects of H.P.B.'s
and

Gurdjieff's methods appear to be fraudulent. Also, the main
sense of

the paragraph, if you read it in its entirety, is to explain the
doctrine of instrumental teaching, which Paul is suggesting
that H.P.B.

and Gurdjieff may have employed. If they did, then that would
mean that

what appears to be outrageous and fraudulent is not so after
all.

The quote you cite on page seven is part of Paul's concluding
paragraphs. Here, he is naming several possible conclusions
one can

make about H.P.B. and Gurdjieff. To paraphrase the ideas: 1)
that Both

may have been Charlatans with Gurdjieff exploiting what HPB
accomplished. 2) That H.P.B. was genuine and Gurdjieff not. 3)
That

Gurdjieff was sent to correct mistakes H.P.B. made 4) Both
H.P.B. and

Gurdjieff were genuine. Paul does not, in his conclusion offer
an

opinion as to which, if any of those possibilities are correct.




2) Besides, I friendly challenge you to extract from Johnson
any clear

declaration that he does NOT consider HPB a fraud, and that he
considers



her



as a sincere, honest, decent woman, author and teacher. He
uses the same

"maybe" tactics as Algeo and others, in the way he slanders
HPB. All his

books use that strategy. As he wants to sell his books, he
will most



likely



NOT contradict himself in that. (In his "approach", Paul
ignores the 1986

declaration of the SPR, etc.)




Carlos, you have to keep in mind that this article was
submitted as a

scholarly paper. What you want Paul to write is an Hagiography
or an

Apologia. Those kinds of discourse are not suitable for
scholarly

writing. I can say that I have known Paul since 1984 and know
for a

fact that he does indeed admire HPB.




3) Of course, Esoteric Philosophy cannot be understood at the
level of



outer



appearances ("face value"). True. Esoteric Philosophy deals
with the

occult, or essential aspects of life, which are "invisible to
the eyes"



(to



use St. Exupery's expression). Yet they are invisible NOT
because they



are



false, as illustrated-ignorants like Paul Johnson and John
Algeo will



say.

I think that we all are ignorant at different levels. Yet for
one

person to call another ignorant, reeks of arrogance to my nose.




See the 'Doctrine
of the Eye' versus the 'Doctrine of the Heart' in "The Voice
of the

Silence".




I have been studying HPB's writings for 43 years and teaching
them for

almost thirty years. I think I understand to eye and heart
doctrines

well enough.




g a4) As to HPB bein fraud or semi-fraud, it is enough to see
her astral

chart. She was a Leo in the sun sign. Is Leo a sign for fraud
or lies?



No.

Benito Mussolini was born July 29, 18883. That makes him a Leo
too.

What do you think of him?




directly opposite to the sometimes
unstable, anxious and astute Scorpio (while Scorpio as a sign
also has



very



good qualities, of course).




Actually, Leo is opposite Aquarius.




HPB was Cancer in her ascendant -- a
personality strongly emotional, sincere, loving, direct,
sensitive, open,

compassionate, sometimes too vulnerable -- and uncapable of
deceiving.




Yasser Arafat had cancer rising. He didn't seem to be overly
sensitive

about the people he killed to get to the position he was in.




Her Moon was in Libra -- her emotions were transparent,
rational, inclined to justice and reciprocity, also
vulnerable, and far




from allowing her to have any cold outer mask.

Truman Capote had moon in Libra. He wrote "In Cold Blood."




Those who attack her personal,
Lion/Cancer/Libra honesty and openess, are attacking the
essential



ethical



basis of her philosophy.




Mere planetary placements alone are not going to tell you much
about a

person. I suggest that you leave astrology to the astrologers.




5) I cannot agree that the book "Incidents in the Life of
Madame



Blavatsky",



by A. P. Sinnett, is a "confused mess". In fact, it is a major
source of

first-hand evidence on HPB's life.






Actually, second hand evidence. It is a biography.




It is the cause of many of HPB's letters
now available. Because of this, Vera, HPB's sister, wrote
important



texts



about the life of the founder of the theosophical movement.




Boris de Zirkoff deserves credit for pulling together most of
the

letters we have. He also corrected the many mistakes in the
Biography.

See the chronologies in the Blavatsky Collected Works, which he
spent 50

years compiling.




6) As to the absence of data about HPB's life, there are two
points I



want



to make.




I don't wish to get into a discussion about your notions of the
esotericism of St. Germain, Carlos Castaneda etc. Rather, HPB
simply

stated that her private life before she became a public person
is none

of the public's business. Most public people fell that way,
whether

they are an occultist, actor, or astronaut.




7) Up to a few days ago, I thought Johnson to be honestly self-

deluded.



I



have to apologize for that. I have learned better. Paul makes
brutal



though



disguised attacks to HPB and the Masters, but, when
confronted with the

facts, he tries to cover himself with the false mantle and
role of a



poor,



delicate and innocent victim.




I hope that the misreadings I have pointed out to you will help
you to

put aside your former conclusions, carefully re-read Paul's
writings and

re-evaluate them.

Best wishes,
Jerry


carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:




Dear Jerry,

Thanks for your views.

1) I will quote from Paul Johnson's pamplhlet "Madame
Blavatsky, the



'veiled



years' " (THC, London, 1987, p. 07):

"There are two obvious questions(...) The first concerns the
relative

genuiness of Gurdjieff and Blavatsky as emissaries of occult
orders.



Both



may have been charlatans, with Gurdjieff merely exploiting the
market

created by H.P.B. (...)."

Is that clear?

In page 03 of the same pamphlet, Johnson explains "why" HPB
was a fraud,



or



"had fraudulent aspects" in her behaviour and work. HPB is but
a mirror



for



him as for many people.


2) Besides, I friendly challenge you to extract from Johnson
any clear

declaration that he does NOT consider HPB a fraud, and that he
considers



her



as a sincere, honest, decent woman, author and teacher. He
uses the same

"maybe" tactics as Algeo and others, in the way he slanders
HPB. All his

books use that strategy. As he wants to sell his books, he
will most



likely



NOT contradict himself in that. (In his "approach", Paul
ignores the 1986

declaration of the SPR, etc.)

3) Of course, Esoteric Philosophy cannot be understood at the
level of



outer



appearances ("face value"). True. Esoteric Philosophy deals
with the

occult, or essential aspects of life, which are "invisible to
the eyes"



(to



use St. Exupery's expression). Yet they are invisible NOT
because they



are



false, as illustrated-ignorants like Paul Johnson and John
Algeo will



say.



Essential aspects of life can be seen only by the heart. See
the



'Doctrine



of the Eye' versus the 'Doctrine of the Heart' in "The Voice
of the

Silence".

g a4) As to HPB bein fraud or semi-fraud, it is enough to see
her astral

chart. She was a Leo in the sun sign. Is Leo a sign for fraud
or lies?



No.



It is the most brave and loyal sign, directly opposite to the
sometimes

unstable, anxious and astute Scorpio (while Scorpio as a sign
also has



very



good qualities, of course). HPB was Cancer in her
ascendant -- a

personality strongly emotional, sincere, loving, direct,
sensitive, open,

compassionate, sometimes too vulnerable -- and uncapable of
deceiving.



No



frauds, then. Her Moon was in Libra -- her emotions were
transparent,

rational, inclined to justice and reciprocity, also
vulnerable, and far




from allowing her to have any cold outer mask. And -- she

spent most of
her



life fighting cold outer personality masks, which she
called "shells'.



She



had reasons to do so. All of her philosophy is the
philosophy of



universal



truth and personal sincerity. Those who attack her personal,
Lion/Cancer/Libra honesty and openess, are attacking the
essential



ethical



basis of her philosophy.


5) I cannot agree that the book "Incidents in the Life of
Madame



Blavatsky",



by A. P. Sinnett, is a "confused mess". In fact, it is a major
source of

first-hand evidence on HPB's life. It is the cause of many of
HPB's



letters



now available. Because of this, Vera, HPB's sister, wrote
important



texts



about the life of the founder of the theosophical movement.


6) As to the absence of data about HPB's life, there are two
points I



want



to make.

First, the life of every regular disciple will have mysterious
aspects.



They



have to protect all their inner lives from "outward
magnetism". See

Alessandro Cagliostro, Count of St. Germain and others,
equally



mysterious,



and equally called "charlatans" by the Paul-Johnsons and V.
Solovyofs of

their times. The libellers of Initiates enjoy selling books
with their

fancied "revelations".

Second, HPB, as Carlos Castaneda and other learners, trained
herself for

some time in self-forgetfulness, which includes "erasing the
signs of



every



step taken in the world". This is something
which people who do not understand a iota of esoteric
philosophy cannot



ever



understand.


7) Up to a few days ago, I thought Johnson to be honestly self-

deluded.



I



have to apologize for that. I have learned better. Paul makes
brutal



though



disguised attacks to HPB and the Masters, but, when
confronted with the

facts, he tries to cover himself with the false mantle and
role of a



poor,



delicate and innocent victim.


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