Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00809)

Thanks Jerry,
Very interesting and informative.
Cass

Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@charter.net> wrote: Dear Cass,

>If only I had the brain and time to show a comparative list of what was written 100 years ago as a theosophical fact and laughed at as incredulous, as you say, in one instance, up until 1957.
>
I wrote an article on that subject for Sunrise Magazine (the Pasadena TS 
publication) some fifteen years ago.  I see they put it on line now. 
Here is the link:
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sunrise/38-88-9/th-sdek.htm

I think you will enjoy reading it.

Best,
Jerry




Cass Silva wrote:

>Thanks Jerry
>Although we cannot show evidence of some of the teachings in SD, e.g. Rounds, Cycles, Globes, evolutionary processes, there are many passages detailing interstellar objects, the relationship between magnetism and electricity, gravitation, etc.  As she says its (science) 'facts' and 'flaws' will become exploded myths. P621 Isis.  If only I had the brain and time to show a comparative list of what was written 100 years ago as a theosophical fact and laughed at as incredulous, as you say, in one instance, up until 1957.
>
>Cass
>
>Sourced the below article from Physorg.
>  Samples from comet Wild 2 have surprised scientists, indicating the formation of at least some comets may have included materials ejected by the early sun to the far reaches of the solar system. 
>    
> 
> Scientists have found minerals formed near the sun or other stars in the samples returned to Earth by NASA's Stardust spacecraft in January. The findings suggest materials from the center of the solar system could have traveled to the outer reaches where comets formed. This may alter the way scientists view the formation and composition of comets. 
> 
> "The interesting thing is we are finding these high-temperature minerals in materials from the coldest place in the solar system," said Donald Brownlee, Stardust principal investigator from the University  of Washington, Seattle. 
> 
> Scientists have long thought of comets as cold, billowing clouds of ice, dust and gases formed on the edges of the solar system. But comets may not be so simple or similar. They may prove to be diverse bodies with complex histories. Comet Wild 2 seems to have had a more complex history than thought. 
> 
> "We have found very high-temperature minerals, which supports a particular model where strong bipolar jets coming out of the early sun propelled material formed near to the sun outward to the outer reaches of the solar system," said Michael Zolensky, Stardust curator and co-investigator at NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston. "It seems that comets are not composed entirely of volatile rich materials but rather are a mixture of materials formed at all temperature ranges, at places very near the early sun and at places very remote from it." 
> 
> One mineral found in the material brought back by Stardust is olivine, a primary component of the green sand found on some Hawaiian beaches. It is among the most common minerals in the universe, but scientists were surprised to find it in cometary dust. 
> 
> Olivine is a compound of iron, magnesium and other elements. The Stardust sample is primarily magnesium. Along with olivine, the dust from Wild 2 contains high-temperature minerals rich in calcium, aluminum and titanium. 
> 
> Stardust passed within 149 miles of comet Wild 2 in January 2004, trapping particles from the comet in an exposed gel. Its return capsule parachuted to the Utah desert on Jan. 15. The science canister with the Wild 2 sample arrived at Johnson on Jan. 17. Samples have been distributed to approximately 150 scientists for study. 
>   
>    (Ads by Google)
>                                                      
>    
>"The collection of cometary particles is greater than we ever expected," said Stardust Deputy Principal Investigator Peter Tsou of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "The collection includes about two dozen large tracks visible to the unaided eye." 
> 
> The grains are tiny, most smaller than a hair's width. Thousands of them appear to be embedded in the glass-like aerogel. A single grain of 10 microns, only one-hundredth of a millimeter (.0004 inches), can be sliced into hundreds of samples for scientists. 
> 
> In addition to cometary particles, Stardust gathered interstellar dust samples during its seven-year journey. The team at Johnson's curatorial facility hopes to begin detailed scanning of the interstellar tray within a month. They will initiate the Stardust at Home project. It will enable volunteers from the public to help scientists locate particles. 
> 
> After registering, Stardust at Home participants may download a virtual microscope. The microscope will connect to a server and download "focus movies." The movies are images of the Stardust Interstellar Dust Collector from an automated microscope at the Cosmic Dust Lab at Johnson. Participants will search each field for interstellar dust impacts. 
> 
> NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., manages the Stardust mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, developed and operated the spacecraft. 
> 
> Stardust science team members presented their first findings this week at the annual Lunar and Planetary Science Conference in League   City, Texas. 
> 
> Source: NASA 
>   
>
>Jerry Hejka-Ekins  wrote: Dear Cass,
>
>OK, now I understand what you are saying.  Yes, I agree that there are 
>things HPB wrote that have become verified.  One of the most 
>extraordinary passages in the SD is about a mid-Atlantic mountain range 
>that begins at Iceland, moves southwards, curves around Africa and ends 
>at India.  At the time, it was known that there was a mid-Atlantic rise 
>in elevation, but not that was a mountain range.  Possibly someone could 
>have speculated that the rise could be mountain range. But there was no 
>evidence one way of the other.  Sometime early in the early 1900s they 
>figured out that it was probably a mountain range, but they did not know 
>how it ran.  The fact that it runs the length of the Atlantic and curves 
>around Africa was not discovered until 1957! 
>
>On the other hand, you might look at D.D. Kanga's "Where Theosophy and 
>Science Meet" (written in 1938).  Kanga tried to interpret the SD 
>according to the then current science and ended up making a lot of 
>misreadings.  I also have a tape here of a talk that Fritz Kunz gave in 
>1964, when the "Continental Drift" notion was first becoming seriously 
>considered in this country.  Fritz remarked that if Continental Drift 
>proves to be correct, "then we may as well throw out the Secret 
>Doctrine."  I can read the SD today and spot numerous statements which, 
>to my understanding, are supportive of Continental Drift.  But during 
>Kanga's time when the idea was all but unknown no one, that I am aware, 
>understood those passages in that way. 
>
>This leads me to wonder all the more about the special nature of the SD, 
>its writer and her teachers. It makes the book all the more exciting.
>
>Best
>Jerry
>
> 
>
>  
>
>>Cass Silva wrote:
>>
>>What is important for me is the information and not where or who the information came from.  Much of it is now starting to be verified by the sciences.  Those ideas that were once thought of as Mumbo Jumbo have and will continue to  become fact. 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>
>Cass Silva wrote:
>
>  
>
>>What is important for me is the information and not where or who the information came from.  Much of it is now starting to be verified by the sciences.  Those ideas that were once thought of as Mumbo Jumbo have and will continue to  become fact. 
>>
>>Cheers
>>Cass
>>Jerry Hejka-Ekins  wrote: Dear Cass,
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Let us say, for argument's sake, that HPB, had reasons unknown to us, but obviously affirmed by the Masters, to preserve their identity and whereabouts as "persona non gratis",while at the same time needing to acknowledge that the universal wisdom was directed and dictated by those same beings. What a task for anyone!
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>That appears to be just the case, in my opinion.
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Has any scholar of theosophy discovered a "lie" within the works given to the world, i.e. Isis and SD?   
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>There is a lot of controversy about the accuracy and source of HPB's 
>>information.  That is to be expected. 
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Isn't this the cogent point?  
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Why?
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>AS far as the bun fight over Tacoma etc, my humble and non scholastic attitude is that the Poparisation of the TS is continuing and will polarise the society out of credible existence, as is the case in the rise and fall of the catholic church.
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>The way I like to express it is that the Theosophical Organizations are 
>>bound hand and foot by their own karma.  I see the polarization as the 
>>outcome of that karma.
>>
>>Best,
>>Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Cass Silva wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Let us say, for argument's sake, that HPB, had reasons unknown to us, but obviously affirmed by the Masters, to preserve their identity and whereabouts    as "persona non gratis", while at the same time needing to acknowledge that the universal wisdom was directed and dictated by those same beings.  What a task for anyone!
>>>
>>>Has any scholar of theosophy discovered a "lie" within the works given to the world, i.e. Isis and SD?   
>>>
>>>Isn't this the cogent point?  
>>>
>>>AS far as the bun fight over Tacoma etc, my humble and non scholastic attitude is that the Poparisation of the TS is continuing and will polarise the society out of credible existence, as is the case in the rise and fall of the catholic church.
>>>
>>>No matter, the horse has already bolted, and the rider free at last from all the petty struggles brought about my men who may believe their crusade is based on moral integrity, laughable.
>>>
>>>Christianity has been arguing for 2000 years about its claim as the one true religion, so those in what they consider powerful positions will be kept employed for many years to come, kicking up the dust.
>>>
>>>
>>>Cass
>>>
>>>carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote: 
>>>Jerry,
>>>
>>>Thanks for you interesting posting.
>>>
>>>You say:
>>>
>>>"I  expected in your reply below to either supply quotes where Paul did 
>>>indeed make such statements, and/or to comment upon my discourse. Instead, 
>>>you come up with a quote where
>>>Paul uses the word "charlatans" in connection to HPB and Gurdjieff.  Now, 
>>>liar and charlatan are two very different words with different meanings."
>>>
>>>I say:
>>>
>>>My point, Jerry,  is that Paul Johnson says that HPB lies or is a charlatan. 
>>>The two words are applied to false persons.  If you believe charlatans do 
>>>not lie, well, my friend! It sounds like that difference between "innocent" 
>>>and "not guilty". (By the way, Brazilian tribunals use the word "innocent" 
>>>instead of "not guilty").
>>>
>>>The issue is that Paul says, implies and suggests that HPB was not truthful 
>>>or reliable. We may all  use the words we prefer for that. There are plenty 
>>>of them.  The meaning is the same, though.
>>>
>>>Besides, my point is NOT that Paul openly and firmly states HPB is a  fraud. 
>>>He follows Algeo's line. He suggests this is "a possibility among others".
>>>
>>>This kind of action  is one of the most efficient forms of active slander. 
>>>This is a form of slander in which the slander tries to avoid being caught 
>>>as such.  This has been used in Adyar TS  since the false accusations 
>>>against Judge in the 1890s.
>>>
>>>When asked to clarify his position with regard to HPB's honesty (which 
>>>should be no big deal!),   Paul, the Historian, refuses to to so, and gets 
>>>away from the debate, using the  mask of a person with  offended  
>>>sensitivities.
>>>
>>>Is this emotionalistic  show a "scholarly attitude"?  Not at all.
>>>
>>>It is well-known,  Jerry,  that authentic scholars and researchers do NOT 
>>>get away when their thesis are confronted.
>>>
>>>Just the opposite. They take every opportunity to clarify their facts,  to 
>>>defend and to IMPROVE their viewpoints.
>>>
>>>Only historians who are benefitting from authoritarian political structures 
>>>will get nervous and bitter and reject clarifying their views.  Now, Adyar 
>>>TS structure, as you may know, is not too open-minded...
>>>
>>>So this is the kind of "Historian" some Adyar leaders (not Ms. Radha 
>>>Burnier) need,  in order to avoid facing the consequences of  Leadbeater's 
>>>biography written by Gregory Tillett -- and other publications which show 
>>>20th century pseudo-theosophy as it is.
>>>
>>>Radha Burnier  runs an authoritarian structure, to my view -- yes.
>>>
>>>But she clearly disapproves the gossiping/libeling  policy about HPB,  and 
>>>she will never -- as long as I know -- defend CW Leadbeater's clairvoyance 
>>>and fancies.  I hope you understand I am looking at the context,  in order 
>>>to understand the specific facts.
>>>
>>>I am sorry if I did not discuss every point in your message below. I hope I 
>>>addressed the main issues, though.   Let me know if I did not.
>>>
>>>Thank you very much for your openess of mind.
>>>
>>>
>>>Best regards,  Carlos.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
>>>>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Subject: Theos-World To Carlos Cardoso Aveline--some thoughts and a reply
>>>>Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:01:10 -0800
>>>>
>>>>Dear Carlos,
>>>>
>>>>I changed your subject heading out of respect for Paul, who has stated
>>>>on several occasions that he does not like his name displayed in subject
>>>>headings.  It is just a matter of respecting the preferences of
>>>>others.   I replaced the heading with your name, which, of course, you
>>>>are free and welcome to change.
>>>>
>>>>Because of my busy schedule, I have become more selective concerning
>>>>which postings I read and which I reply to.  I try to reply to those
>>>>posts which I feel that I can make a constructive contribution to the
>>>>writer and/or interested readers.  To properly do this, I have to take
>>>>the time to read (sometimes several times) the post, consider what they
>>>>are saying (and implying), and then formulate an answer which I hope
>>>>will move the topic along. This takes time.  But I believe that these
>>>>kind of posts raises the overall quality of a discussion board and is
>>>>helpful to others.  On the other hand, to argue for the sake of argument
>>>>is, for me, a waste of energy and time.  It is my hope that my
>>>>correspondents take the same time and consideration to reply to my
>>>>messages to them.  Now, regarding our discussion.
>>>>
>>>>My last response to you was concerning your statement that Paul wrote
>>>>that HPB "lied."  Here again is the statement you made, which I replied:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>When Paul Johnson writes that she lied, or implies that she lied, that 
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>she was a Spy, etc. (which she denied vehemently and unendingly) he is 
>>>>saying that her philosophy is the philosophy of a liar, the philosophy of a
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>fraudulent woman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>I replied that I did not recall Paul writing that HPB lied.  I then went
>>>>into a carefully considered discourse about HPB's style of communication
>>>>and how it is so often misunderstood.  I expected in your reply below to
>>>>either supply quotes where Paul did indeed make such statements, and/or
>>>>to comment upon my discourse. Instead, you come up with a quote where
>>>>Paul uses the word "charlatans" in connection to HPB and Gurdjieff.
>>>>Now, liar and charlatan are two very different words with different
>>>>meanings.  My Webster's Dictionary defines the word in part: "one who
>>>>prates much in his own favor, and makes unwarranted pretensions..."
>>>>This definition seems to fit well the quote you gave me below.  It does
>>>>not necessarily imply lying, but only self-promotion.  At any rate, this
>>>>is an entirely different discussion.  If this is your method of
>>>>discussion, that is, shifting the terms of the discussion with new
>>>>arguments instead of responding to my discourse, then I must reply by
>>>>saying that I frankly cannot afford the time, nor do I have an
>>>>inclination to play this kind of game.  With this said, I will assume
>>>>that you misunderstood and will more carefully re-read my last. In the
>>>>mean time, I will respond to your statements below:
>>>>
>>>>I re-read the 1987 Theosophical History Pamphlet and noted the quotes
>>>>given below.  Your sentence fragment  "had fraudulent aspects" Appears
>>>>once on page three. In context, the quote reads:
>>>>
>>>>"The Sufi doctrine of instrumental teaching demonstrates a possible
>>>>explanation of the apparently 'outrageous' and 'fraudulent" aspects of
>>>>H.P.B. and Gurdjieff." He then goes on to explain what the Sufi doctrine
>>>>of instrumental teaching is.  Note that Paul had put "outrageous" and
>>>>"fraudulent" in quotes.  That means that he is quoting someone elses'
>>>>use of the terms.  Also, the qualifier "apparently" indicates that
>>>>whoever he is quoting, is not saying that aspects of H.P.B.'s and
>>>>Gurdjieff's  methods appear to be fraudulent.  Also, the main sense of
>>>>the paragraph, if you read it in its entirety, is to explain the
>>>>doctrine of instrumental teaching, which Paul is suggesting that H.P.B.
>>>>and Gurdjieff may have employed.  If they did, then that would mean that
>>>>what appears to be outrageous and fraudulent is not so after all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The quote you cite on page seven is part of Paul's concluding
>>>>paragraphs.  Here, he is naming several possible conclusions one can
>>>>make about H.P.B. and Gurdjieff. To paraphrase the ideas: 1) that Both
>>>>may have been Charlatans with Gurdjieff exploiting what HPB
>>>>accomplished. 2) That H.P.B. was genuine and Gurdjieff not. 3) That
>>>>Gurdjieff was sent to correct mistakes H.P.B. made 4) Both H.P.B. and
>>>>Gurdjieff were genuine.  Paul does not, in his conclusion offer an
>>>>opinion as to which, if any of those possibilities are correct.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>2) Besides, I friendly challenge you to extract from Johnson any clear
>>>>>declaration that he does NOT consider HPB a fraud, and that he considers 
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>her
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>as a sincere, honest, decent woman, author and teacher. He uses the same
>>>>>"maybe" tactics as Algeo and others, in the way he slanders HPB.  All his
>>>>>books use that strategy. As he wants to sell his books, he will most 
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>likely
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>NOT contradict himself in that. (In his "approach", Paul ignores the 1986
>>>>>declaration of the SPR, etc.)
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Carlos, you have to keep in mind that this article was submitted as a
>>>>scholarly paper.  What you want Paul to write is an Hagiography or an
>>>>Apologia.  Those kinds of discourse are not suitable for scholarly
>>>>writing.   I can say that I have known Paul since 1984 and know for a
>>>>fact that he does indeed admire HPB.
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>3) Of course, Esoteric Philosophy cannot be understood at the level of 
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>outer
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>appearances ("face value"). True. Esoteric  Philosophy  deals with the
>>>>>occult, or essential aspects of life, which are "invisible to the eyes" 
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>(to
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>use St. Exupery's expression).  Yet they are invisible NOT because they 
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>are
>>>>  
>>>>

=== message truncated ===

		
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