Theos-Talk Archives (July 2006 Message tt00518)

Friends,

Daniel Caldwell's gossipy view of the history is but a poison. 

The questin is not that Mr. Crosbie, as a personaliym, did this or that, only. 
The main issue is that the theosophical movement was undergoing a whole crisis of transition, and as the movement changed, so people's attitudes and commitments had to change, too.

Taking things out of their context is but a tactics to attack the movement. 

"David Green" and Daniel Cadlwell should think better.  I hope both personalities, David and Daniel, will open their inner visions and put Antahkarana to work a little bit better.  


Best regards,   Carlos. 




De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Wed, 26 Jul 2006 07:12:59 -0700

Assunto:Theos-World RE: Dallas on "Robert Crosbie Claimed......"

> 7/26/2006 6:09 AM
> 
> RE: Dallas on "Robert Crosbie Claimed......"
> 
> Dear Friend Daniel:
> 
> In future why not save us all the time by actually quoting such documents,
> if they actually answer your repeated questions. WHY REPEAT ? 
> 
> It is your vague repeats that seem so time wasting to me. I would prefer it
> if new readers were given right away those references to consider, then what
> you are asking might be clear from the outset.
> 
> If you have any answers, or opinions, I will be glad to read them.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Dallas
> 
> =====================
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: On Behalf Of danielhcaldwell
> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 6:20 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Dallas on "Robert Crosbie Claimed......"
> 
> Dallas,
> 
> In my posting, I wrote at the end:
> 
> =========================================
> See source documents at:
> 
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescrosbie.htm
> =====================================
> 
> On this web page, the sources for most of the
> quotes will be found.
> 
> Did you not check this webpage???? 
> 
> DTB [ IT IS READ, AND IN MY FILES ]
> 
> I'm sure as a student of Mr. Crosbie's life,
> that you are quite familiar with all of these
> documents. 
> 
> DTB [I AM , BUT I AM FAR MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT HE DID FOR
> THEOSOPHY -- is that also your interest ? DTB ]
> 
> 
> Do you dispute any of them? 
> 
> Mr. Crosbie made these claims on the dates given.
> 
> On this webpage, these are his words...not mine....
> 
> Do you dispute any of his claims??
> 
> DTB [IF THEY ARE FACTS AND DOCUMENTS, WHY SHOULD I ?. 
> 
> I MERELY REFUSE TO MAKE A COMMENT, LEAVING IT TO ANY READERS TO FORM THEIR
> OWN. 
> 
> MY PERSONAL OPINIONS ARE UNIMPORTANT. DTB ]
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> =================================
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck" 
> wrote: 
> 
> 7/25/2006 3:18 PM
> 
> RE: Robert Crosbie Claimed....
> 
> Dear Friends:
> 
> I am not under the impression that Mr. Crosbie made any "claims" other
> than being a devoted student of THEOSOPHY and openly avowing his respect
> for HPB and WQJ -- however, let us see further: 
> 
> In what appears to be a fresh format recently brought into play and adopted
> by Mr. D. Caldwell, unlike most historians in search of facts, he appears
> to fail from the first to present the reader (see below), with those
> accurate times and dates which are known to him. 
> 
> Are we all to be subjected to a set of teasers? Are the queries genuine? 
> 
> I find that he does not seem to reveal what happened subsequent to the
> period (which he questions) involved -- which may have induced a change in
> Mr Crosbie's appreciation of Mrs. Tingley's conduct (under her Presidency)
> of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in America .
> 
> I have inserted in his text (below) CAPITAL LETTERS asking why his
> observations and queries are made. Let us cut the time, the fuzziness,
> etc., and come to the point (if any).
> 
> To me, it is inappropriate to associate the WORK and the declared purpose
> (1909) of the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS with any individual, including
> its chief founder: Mr. Robert Crosbie. At the end of the book The FRIENDLY
> PHILOSOPHER ( pp. 409 to 415 ) those reasons and purposes will be found
> detailed as they have always been made available.
> 
> The impersonality and the denial of any individual's "authority" is the
> hallmark of the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS. 
> 
> The publications for which the U L T has made itself responsible endeavour
> to present THEOSOPHY as it was published, and students are expected verify
> this and to do their own study – so that they may rely on their own
> independent efforts, reasoning and common sense. Any good system of
> education does the same. 
> 
> That work is the promulgation and study of "original" THEOSOPHY. Is there
> any problem ?
> 
> In retrospect we have observed that in those early years, students had few
> materials for the actual study of Theosophy. 
> 
> 1875-88 There were only HPB's ISIS UNVEILED, articles in the issues of THE
> THEOSOPHIST and THE PATH, ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, and the OCCULT WORLD written
> by Mr. Sinnett. 
> 
> 1888 - 91 Later, apart from articles in THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER, and PATH,
> HPB wrote THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, THE SECRET DOCTRINE and THE VOICE OF THE
> SILENCE. 
> 
> Judge in publishing the magazine THE PATH (1886-1896), provided students
> with a great many practical hints on Theosophy. These not only covered his
> observations, but illustrated aspects of doctrine and metaphysics which
> students were interested in.
> 
> 1893 - 95 During this period Mr. Judge was attacked, exonerated, and,
> later persecuted again by the chief officers of the T. S. outside of
> America. Those were Col. H. S. Olcott the President Founder, and Mrs. Annie
> Besant as President of the British and European Sections of the T S.
> Contemporary Theosophical magazines printed articles and contributions on
> this, and from them, considered altogether one may reconstruct the motives
> and events. 
> 
> Neither of these two officers appeared to have understood that Mr. Judge
> (and Mr. Crosbie in Boston) stood primarily for Theosophy (as HPB did) and
> not only for the T S . 
> 
> To them, the T S appeared to be a useful tool, to be sustained as a
> promulgating body for the doctrines of Theosophy. 
> 
> To Judge and Crosbie, and others in America and England, the T S was to be
> directed on the basis of the principles which Theosophy laid down and no
> others. 
> 
> No individuals' "authority" was recognized by them. Each member's free-will
> and free-determination was his own responsibility and no one else could
> wield authority over him or her. Theosophy alone was held to be the sole
> reason for the T S. and the Officers in its management ought to present that
> basis at all times.
> 
> Mr. Crosbie supported Mr. Judge's principles fully. He acted as one of the
> "witnesses on the scene." He, kept the "link" of pure Theosophy "unbroken,"
> after Mr. Judge's death. 
> 
> The hints given by W.Q.J. during his life in regard to Crosbie were not
> grasped by those around him, who had what they fancied to be their own
> positions. And, in addition, seemed to be glamoured and deluded by the
> psychic powers Mrs. Tingley exhibited (she had only been a member for only a
> year prior to Mr. Judge's death). 
> 
> In New York, Mr. Neresheimer, who was Mr. Judge's executor and Mr. Hargrove
> went through Judge's papers. They found what was later described as an
> incomplete and very fragmentary, cryptic diary of Mr. Judges', but which
> Hargrove claimed (in 1896) to be an "occult" diary; and in this, he said he
> detected that Mr. Judge's indicated that Mrs. Tingley was to "succeed" him.
> 
> Mr. Neresheimer had introduced Mrs. Tingley to W. Q. J. about a year before
> his death. She became a member of the T S. She was a psychic and apparently
> did not have a very profound knowledge of Theosophical philosophy. 
> 
> She had been of help to Mr. Judge during the last year of his life which
> was spent in great discomfort and illness. However this gave her no special
> "position" in regard to the management of the T.S.
> 
> Many years later (1923), Mr. Neresheimer made a deposition outlining these
> events, and in that he reversed some of his earlier pronouncements, on which
> the "succession" of Mrs. Tingley had been based. 
> 
> From time to time this "occult diary" has been mentioned as giving
> "authority" for the "Tingley succession," however, when requests were made
> to see it, or have it published, for all to verify, this was not done at
> that time. Copies were made of it and are available from several 
> sources, but a reader will find it is difficult to establish any coherence
> in those phrases and notes. (see also: THY 3, p. 280)
> 
> Mr. Judge died March 21st l896. Mr. Crosbie was in Boston. 
> 
> Of the events in New-York, he wrote:-- 
> 
> "Two or three of the New York members--notably E. T. Hargrove and . A.
> Neresheimer--obtained possession of Mr. Judge's keys and went through his
> private papers; in these [ they said ] they found reference to a certain
> "chela," whom Neresheimer determined to be Mrs. Tingley whom he 
> had known for about a year, and whom he had brought to Judge's notice. The 
> idea being in their minds that there must of necessity be an "occult 
> successor."
> Concurring in the opinion that Mrs. T. was indicated, they sent out a
> circular that Judge had appointed her as such. The minds of all, being in
> the receptive condition ... accepted everything as stated by the few in
> New-York. 
> 
> The attitude assumed by Mrs. T. soon began to estrange those members who
> were brought in close touch with her in New York, but those at a distance
> had no inkling of the true state of affairs and kept on in full confidence.
> 
> Those who found that they had made a mistake in the first place in foisting
> Mrs. T. upon the organization were in too doubtful a position to attempt
> explanations; one of them only -- Mr. Neresheimer--(who had introduced her
> to Judge) -- remaining her supporter...his support was sufficient to offset
> any withdrawal of the others in New York."
> 
> "Mrs. T. took advantage of the situation, and most plausibly and shrewdly
> strengthened her position for two years after her advent, then formed the
> "UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD" with herself as absolute dictator; carrying with her
> by far the greater number of the members throughout the country. A year
> later she went to Point Loma and established the institution 
> there." 
> 
> 1896-1900 In reviewing this period, Mr. Crosbie said:-- 
> 
> "I was in Boston and had no reason to doubt the statements of those in N.Y.
> whom I believed to be sincere and of good training and judgment. 
> I should have known by other means the true state of affairs...when Judge
> passed out
> of life, I lost touch with him; doubtless I relied on him too much, and had
> not exercised my own intuition; from later events my comprehension is, that
> this loss of touch was purposely done in order that I might strengthen my
> weakness in that direction..."
> 
> Mr. Crosbie was summoned by Mrs. Tingley to take up residence in Point Loma
> outside of San Diego, California, where a Headquarters had been located for
> the T S in A, now renamed UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD and THE THEOSOPHICAL
> SOCIETY. 
> 
> He went there with Mrs. Crosbie, and as was required then, on taking up
> residence, all their assets were turned over to the organization. 
> He gave his support to Mrs. Tingley, as will be noted from several articles
> and letters of his written during those years. THEOS. MOVEMENT
> ('75-'50),p. 317-19 THY 65 159-60
> 
> Considering the close relationship that existed between Mr. Crosbie and Mr.
> Judge, and the special position that Mr. Crosbie occupies in the
> Theosophical Movement of modern times, one wonders whether Mr. Crosbie might
> not be considered a "shepherd" who was following his straying "flock." And
> when that "flock" dispersed, the "shepherd" went in search of a 
> new one.
> 
> Conflicting reports were circulated from the Point Loma organization as to
> why Mr. and Mrs. Crosbie left the Point Loma establishment. None of the
> family assets which he turned over at the time of entry were returned to
> him. He and Mrs. Crosbie, when they left were left penniless. 
> 
> Mr. Crosbie is reported to have said: -- "We quietly left Point Loma." And
> that closed the subject. (The Register of Members kept in Point Loma shows a
> smudged remark in red ink against his name: "EXPELLED 1904.")
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> Mr. Caldwell may still have on file the following concerning the history
> book:
> 
> THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875 – 1950),  330 pages, 
>                         Hard Bound   $  6.00 
>                         Free  "On Line" at   
> www.phx-ult-lodge.org/
>  
>  Very detailed history and accurate information.
> 
> [ The following explanatory statement drawn up by Robert Crosbie for the
> information of all theosophists, was made public concurrently with the
> foundation of "The United Lodge of Theosophists" and the adoption of its
> DECLARATION by himself and the seven original Associates, on February 18,
> 1909.] …..FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER p. 412 ......
> 
> Hope this is of help
> 
> Dallas
> 
> =====================
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: danielhcaldwell
> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Robert Crosbie Claimed......
> 
> Robert Crosbie made the following claims: [WHEN ?]
> 
> (1) that he "recognized" Katherine Tingley as the Outer Head "without hint
> or instruction". [ WHY ? ]
> 
> (2) that he recognized Katherine Tingley as "the agent of the Master I
> serve...." [ FOR HOW LONG ? ]
> 
> (3) that Katherine Tingley was appointed by William Q. Judge as his
> successor. [ WHERE AND WHEN IS THIS STATED ? ]
> 
> (4) that William Q. Judge had said of Katherine Tingley: "she is true as
> steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting as time." [a quote from Judge's
> "occult diary"] 
> 
> [ AS I RECALL THERE WAS SOME DOUBTS RAISED BY Mr. Neresheimer 
> CONCERNING THIS. NO DOUBT MR. Caldwell WILL GIVE US THE REFERENCES – WHEN,
> WHERE, HOW ? ]
> 
> (5) that the Point Loma T.S. Center in San Diego, California, founded by
> Mrs. Tingley, was "a realization of what William Q. Judge lived for, worked
> for, [and] hoped for...." [ WHEN AND WHERE SAID ?]
> 
> See source documents at: 
> 
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescrosbie.htm
> =====================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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