Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00116)

I remember Blavatsky was claiming a lot.
Claim is a neutral word. Its only mean that someone is saying that 
something is in a certain way, and word its self do not say if it is 
right or wrong. So Blavatsky claimed, and so did Judge, Crosbie, 
Besant, Leadbeater, Julius Cesar, Karl Marx, I do it and even 
Carlos. And we do it al the time. When we say that we believe that 
reincarnation is a fact in nature, we are actually claiming this. 

And about the national section of the Pasadena TS. In an e-mail, 
last week, from a European TS-fellow with regular contacts with the 
HQ in Pasadena it was written that the Finish Section was to be 
closed very soon. That makes nine sections. I see now that this 
section still is listed on Pasadena's webpage, but since there have 
been none activities in any form many years, I can see way it is to 
be closed. Sad, but the cold fact. 

Carl

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Friends,
> 
> I do not remember HPB "claiming" anything. Or Crosbie.  Or the 
ULT. 
> 
> It was A. Besant who presented herself as an Adept -- HPB rarely 
or never stated that she was even a "Initiate". 
> 
> It was C.W. Leadbeater who claimed he had several initiations, 
visited Mars and Mercury and talked to "Mr.Christ" nearly every 
week. And this is in the Adyar literature -- with good sources! 
> 
> It was Besant and CWL who claimed Krishnamurti was the new 
Messiah, etc.
> 
> 
> It is the Coulombs who claimed HPB "claimed" this or that.   It is 
the Coulomb and Soloviof publicizers who 'claim'  that 
Crosbie 'claimed' this or that. 
> 
> 
> Regards,   Carlos. 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:03:33 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: To Carl (& maybe Carlos) --- R. Crosbie 
Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> 
> > Thanks Daniel for this interesting posting.
> > 
> > Blavatsky claimed direct, and in no "cryptic ways, that she was 
an 
> > agent of the Masters, and acted on Their direct orders, both 
when 
> > she founded the TS in 1875, and when she founded the E.S.T.S. in 
> > 1888. She said this straight out. But with Crosbie it was 
something 
> > else. 
> > Crosbie was saying that some one was "one Witness" and "a 
Represent" 
> > of the Masters etc, but not that these one was him self. After 
his 
> > death, that ULT-people was claiming that this was Crosbie, but 
did 
> > he ever claimed that him self? I don't know, and answer is most 
> > probably hidden for the world in the archives of DES and 
Theosophy 
> > Company in Los Angeles. If not there is something in his 
writhing, 
> > that we have missed.
> > I'm just guessing now. Could there have been some one else? Was 
> > Crosbie alone? The fact that Crosbie was married, with a young 
child 
> > (as far as know, he only hade one daughter), was a direct 
> > disqualification for him, to be a Chela. Could he have been 
working 
> > together with a Chela? How knows? The fact that the official 
history 
> > of the ULT not is fully reliable does not make this easier. 
> > 
> > For some years ago, one group president of the DES told me that 
they 
> > (the DES) consider "H.P.B." as their "sole Head" (no talk there 
> > about any I.H. or O.H., and their highest officer was a "simple 
> > Secretary", his words not mine), and that this was the case when 
it 
> > was founded (1909) and that this still is the case. If we take 
this 
> > by it word, it doesn't make sense. H.P.B. was the Master S.B. 
how 
> > was the Head of the First Section, and not of the Second Section 
> > (the ES). Master M. was I.H. of the ES, and H.P. Blavatsky was 
the 
> > O.H. And if we believe the he was meaning H.P. Blavatsky, it 
still 
> > doesn't make any sense. Only if H.P. Blavatsky today is a 
Master, 
> > but then the ULT-people know something the rest of the 
Theosophical 
> > world doesn't know anything about. 
> > 
> > I haven't seen much of the DES-material, but is there something 
that 
> > not is to be found the material of Blavatsky's and Judge's EST, 
or 
> > not in common is known? If there is nothing, which I think, the 
ULT-
> > people can say what they wants, for in a "new start" of an 
Esoteric 
> > body, direct under the leadership of the Master, there must be 
> > something. Further instructions or explanations etc. I know that 
> > P.B. Wadia wrote new material for the DES, but I haven't seen 
this, 
> > so I don't know that this is about. 
> > 
> > About claims within the ULT. One other thing is that some 
leading 
> > ULT-associates are saying that Mr. Judge immediately after hid 
death 
> > took over the body after a young boy in New York City, who just 
dead 
> > in ammonia, and that this boy when he was older joined the ULT. 
So 
> > maybe this boy was the Chela Crosbie was working together whit? 
Who 
> > knows? 
> > 
> > I just said that "some leading ULT-associates" are saying this, 
and 
> > NOT that the ULT is saying it. So please, don't make me to 
repeat 
> > this. 
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > To Carl (& maybe Carlos)--- 
> > > Robert Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > In 1887, H.P. Blavatsky wrote to Countess Constance 
Wachtmeister 
> > the 
> > > following:
> > > 
> > > "After a long conversation with Master....either I have to 
return 
> > to 
> > > India to die . . . or I have to form ... a nucleus of true 
> > > Theosophists, a school of my own ... with as many mystics as I 
can 
> > > get to teach them...."
> > > 
> > > Later in Sept. 1888 in a letter to John Ransom Bridge, HPB 
wrote:
> > > 
> > > "...I am organizing...a special centre ... of exclusively 
occult 
> > > students, willing to accept...the teachings of which I am the 
> > channel 
> > > and which I cannot impart except to pledged members...."
> > > 
> > > In the "Preliminary Memorandum" issued in Dec. 1888, one finds 
the 
> > > following: 
> > > 
> > > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of whom 
H.P. 
> > > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section. He is one of 
those 
> > > Adepts referred to in theosophical literature, and concerned 
in 
> > the 
> > > formation of the Theosophical Society. It is through H.P. 
> > Blavatsky 
> > > that each member of this section will be brought more closely 
than 
> > > hitherto under His influence and care if found worthy of it." 
> > > Quoted from: 
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/esinstr.htm#prelim1
> > > 
> > > From the above, one sees that H.P. Blavatsky formed the 
Esoteric 
> > > Section AT THE DIRECTION of the Master. And the Master was the 
> > REAL 
> > > Head of the Section and H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of 
this 
> > > Master for the Section.
> > > 
> > > Now consider what the historian Gregory Tillett has written 
about 
> > > Robert Crosbie and the Dzyan Esoteric School:
> > > 
> > > "Within the ULT a separate ES, claiming continuity with that 
of 
> > HPB, 
> > > was established in 1909 with the title 'Dzyan Esoteric 
School', 
> > which 
> > > it claimed was the proper title of the Second [Esoteric] 
Section 
> > of 
> > > the Theosophical Society."
> > > 
> > > Dr. Tillett also wrote:
> > > 
> > > "The first DES group was established in Los Angeles by Robert 
> > Crosbie 
> > > in November 1909...."
> > > 
> > > Quoted from:
> > > "DES", http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36730
> > > Posted on Theos-Talk, Tues Oct 31, 2006, 1:19 pm
> > > 
> > > Notice that Dr. Tillett writes that the DES claimed CONTINUITY 
> > with 
> > > the ES of HPB.
> > > 
> > > Now ponder this:
> > > 
> > > If H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric Section in 1888 UNDER 
THE 
> > > DIRECTION of her Master, then under WHOSE DIRECTION did Robert 
> > > Crosbie form in 1909 the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > 
> > > And was there a Master who was actually the real Head of the 
Dzyan 
> > > Esoteric School?
> > > 
> > > And if H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of her Master for the 
> > > Esoteric Section, was Robert Crosbie the "mouthpiece" of a 
Master 
> > for 
> > > the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > 
> > > These questions seem very relevant and appropriate to ask in 
light 
> > of 
> > > what H.P. Blavatsky wrote and especially since Robert Crosbie 
> > himself 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and THE TRUE CHELAS 
of 
> > the 
> > > School of the Masters are NOT to be found among those 
[persons, 
> > for 
> > > example, Mrs. Besant and Mrs. Tingley] who have lost the point 
of 
> > > contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming 
themselves 
> > > Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the 
other 
> > > theosophical society and esoteric section, WHERE MAY THEY 
[ ... 
> > THE 
> > > TRUE CHELAS ...] BE DISCERNED? . . ." Theosophy, March 1915. 
> > caps 
> > > added.
> > > 
> > > ". . . The various theosophical societies and esoteric 
sections OF 
> > > THE DAY are in no sense representative of the School of the 
> > Masters 
> > > or the Theosophical Movement. . . The Anciently universal 
Wisdom- 
> > > Religion, the School of the Masters and the Theosophical 
Movement 
> > are 
> > > in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as always. . . ."
> > > 
> > > "NOW, as always, they have THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND AGENTS 
AMONG 
> > > MEN, who cannot be found out by any but those who have earned 
the 
> > > right to know them. . . ." Theosophy, February 1915. caps 
added.
> > > 
> > > Since Crosbie founded this secret Dzyan Esoteric School, was 
he 
> > > himself a "true chela", a "representative" and "agent" of the 
> > > Masters among men? 
> > > 
> > > Especially since he had in so many words stated that Mrs. 
Besant, 
> > > Mrs. Tingley, etc had "lost the point of contact with the 
> > Masters". 
> > > 
> > > So was he NOW "the point of contact with the Masters"?
> > > 
> > > Also keep in mind that at his death, THEOSOPHY magazine 
proclaimed 
> > in 
> > > no uncertain terms:
> > > 
> > > "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second 
> > [Esoteric] 
> > > Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. 
Judge 
> > in 
> > > 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that link 
once 
> > > more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third 
Section 
> > was 
> > > restored by the formation of the United Lodge of 
Theosophists ...."
> > > 
> > > "...There is always one Witness on the scene. After the death 
of 
> > Mr. 
> > > Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken." Theosophy 
> > magazine, 
> > > August, 1919.
> > > 
> > > Crosbie believed Judge was the agent and representative of the 
> > > Masters when he was still alive. So if indeed Crosbie kept the 
> > > [esoteric?] link unbroken after Mr. Judge's death, was Crosbie 
> > > really the "one Witness"? And what exactly does that term mean?
> > > 
> > > one Witness = true Chela = Representative = Agent of the 
> > Masters ????
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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