Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt01282)

Carlos,

I don't know how wrote it ether, but my question was if there is any 
thru in it. But maybe there is a way to find out. To look in The 
Theosophical Quaternaly for this years.
But then tell me, Carlos. Way is the ULT so negative about Hargrove?
Hence Pasadena and ULT do not agree a bit about what happened 
between 1905 and 1909, it's not easy to find out the truth.

You wrote:
"Anyway, that which unites Hargrove's students and Crosbie's , and 
Purucker's,
and Point Loma's, and Pasadena students is far more important, these 
days, that
that which is different in them.

All of them recognize HPB/Masters as their source, and as time 
passes the common
"Ocean of Theosophy" will unite them all among them, and also to 
Adyar TS
students of classical Theosophy."

I support you there, but way is this not the opinion of ULT?

I have Tenbroeck's text, but haven't read it for many years. And how 
do know this is correct anyway?

Carl

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
> 
> I don't know who writes for "Wikipedia" on this issue and takes 
this illusory vision.   Do you know?  
> 
> You have a correct version on the birth of the ULT from Dallas 
Tenbroeck's
> text "Biographical Notes on Robert Crosbie". Let me know if you 
don't have it. 
> 
> Anyway, that which unites Hargrove's  students and Crosbie's , and 
Purucker's, and Point Loma's, and Pasadena students is far more 
important, these days, that that which is different in them. 
> 
> All of them recognize HPB/Masters as their source, and as time 
passes the common "Ocean of Theosophy" will unite them all among 
them, and also to Adyar TS students of classical Theosophy. 
> 
> 
> Regards,  Carlos.
> 
> 
>  
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Tue, 28 Nov 2006 04:43:07 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World The origin of ULT?
> 
> > The origin of ULT?
> > 
> > Yesterday I fund this on Wikipedia:
> > 
> > "In 1906 or 1907 the Theosophical Society in America (Hargrove) 
gave 
> > Robert Crosbie a deed of foundation to found a lodge in Los 
Angeles. 
> > Hargrove can thus be seen as an obstetrician to the United Lodge 
of 
> > Theosophists."
> > 
> > See: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophical_Society_in_America_%
> > 28Hargrove%29
> > 
> > Have anyone here any information concerning this? If it's right 
or 
> > not, I do not know, but if it is correct this could very well 
> > explain way the ULT in their two "history" books is very 
negative 
> > about Mr. Hargrove and this work. So there must have been a 
conflict 
> > between Crosbie and Hargrove them somewhere around 1908, if this 
is 
> > true. The reason for that Crosbie left Lomaland was contra 
> > production, and it would not surprise me if this was the later 
> > reason to.
> > 
> > Two talking examples of how the ULT-people wrote about Mr. 
Hargrove 
> > are:
> > 
> > "BEFORE PASSING to other phases of twentieth-century 
Theosophical 
> > history, some attention should be given to the general aftermath 
of 
> > the Tingley succession. The claims for Mrs. Tingley's high 
status 
> > rested, as we have seen, upon alleged "written instructions" 
from 
> > Mr. Judge and upon "psychic" impressions or communications 
received 
> > by the eight prominent members, headed by E. T. Hargrove, who 
> > arranged and participated in the E.S.T. meeting in New York of 
March 
> > 29, 1896. Of these eight, Hargrove was the first to reverse 
himself 
> > and to repudiate Mrs. Tingley as Judge's successor. In his E.S. 
> > pamphlet of May 17, 1896, "An Occultist's Life," he had by 
> > implication elevated Mrs. Tingley above even H.P.B. and Judge in 
> > respect to her "training and preparation." He was, he 
> > explains, "directed" to make these statements concerning Mrs. 
> > Tingley. But two years later he is again "directed," this time 
to 
> > reject Mrs. Tingley and to "expose" her. His authority in both 
cases 
> > was "the Master."
> > 
> > (The Theosophical Movement 1875-1950, chapter XIX, p. 279)
> > 
> > Isn't this strange? The ULT-"historians" are attacking and 
> > criticising Mr. Hargrove for exactly the same thing as Mr. 
Crosbie 
> > did, namely first following K.T. (and publicly announced her as 
> > the "Agent of the Master"), and later founded a new society (the 
ULT 
> > is a society, what ever they may claming), and claming that 
> > the "authority in both cases was "the Master."
> > 
> > And:
> > 
> > "That Mr. Hargrove, as well as Mrs. Tingley, had "high and rare 
> > mediumistic and psychic gifts" is indicated throughout his 
letters, 
> > for he tells Mrs. Tingley: "It is by Master's order that I write 
> > you"; "by order of the Master you have ceased to be the Outer 
Head 
> > of the E.S.T. in the interior and true sense"; "The Outer Head 
to 
> > follow you has already been appointed by the Master." The 
> > circulation of Mr. Hargrove's pamphlet, the legal proceedings 
begun 
> > by him and his associates to test the validity of the action of 
the 
> > Chicago Convention, and the revival of the old Theosophical 
Forum; 
> > with its first number dated February, 1898, containing an 
account of 
> > the Chicago proceedings and the efforts of the "bolters" to 
continue 
> > on the old lines - all these were met by vigorous efforts on the 
> > part of the pro-Tingley majority. By the middle of April the 
first 
> > number of The Searchlight; to which we have referred, was out 
with 
> > forty large pages of fine print in an endeavor to counteract the 
> > feared effects of the Hargrove revelations. The combined matter 
of 
> > both sides, when sifted and related to the proceedings made 
public 
> > immediately after the death of Mr. Judge in the circulars of 
March 
> > 29 and April 3, 1896, establishes beyond all question that Mrs. 
> > Tingley's "successorship" was due, and due only, to 
the "messages" 
> > obtained by virtue of the "high and rare mediumistic and psychic 
> > gifts" of Mrs. Tingley, Mr. Hargrove, Mr. Wright, and others -
> > "messages" from "Masters," from the dead H.P.B. and the dead 
W.Q. 
> > Judge - not to any "appointment" made by the living William Q. 
Judge 
> > in his own physical handwriting."
> > 
> > (The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925, pp 680-681)
> > 
> > And again they are attacking and criticising Mr. Hargrove (and 
> > others) for exactly the same thing as Mr. Crosbie did, namely 
> > claiming to have contact with "the dead H.P.B. and the dead W.Q. 
> > Judge", and to have received "messages" from "Masters". So, was 
then 
> > Mr. Crosbie a Medium too? As one can see here, he must have 
been! If 
> > not, Mr. Crosbie laid. 
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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