Theos-Talk Archives (January 2007 Message tt00188)

Hello Carlos,
As with everything there is an oscillation between two extremes and 
in the ideal we should try and maintain the middle way.

That middle way will be different for each individual and only we can 
decide for ourselves when we have over stepped the mark, this applies 
to all areas of life and not just sex.

My own choices and thoughts on life's issues are not determined by 
what HPB or the Mahatma's have said or not said on things, while 
their perspectives are well worth considering, I think things through 
for myself and try and examine what might be the most compassionate 
and helpful way to approach things using my own sense of reasoning 
and feeling.

Loving and nurturing relationships between gay and lesbian couples 
are equally as valuable and important as those between heterosexuals.

Denying them the right to feel dignified and fully accepted as who 
and what they are, is in my mind an outrageous injustice.

The kindness, sharing, mutual respect & love they share in their 
relationships is equally as important to the world as when those 
qualities are manifested in any other relationship.
In fact it may be an opportunity for us to expand our vision of who 
and what we are even further and try and see more deeply into our 
nature as human beings beyond just our sexual preference.

Regards
Perry


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:


> Perry,
> 
> I sincerely do not believe that the esoteric philosophy has a 
policy, or a teaching, on homosexuality. 
> 
> Occultism or esoteric philosophy takes heterosexuality for granted, 
and besides that,  it exacts  great moderation from people.
> 
> It is interesting to notice that in "The Key to Theosophy", HPB 
writes that, after all, marriage is still the best defence from utter 
immorality ; with the exception, she says, of a very few people who 
may be apt to Occultism... 
> 
> I should give you the page;  but if you go to the Index and look 
for "marriage", you will get the right page and paragraph.  
> 
> I guess the absence of extensive teachings or discussions on sex, 
on the part of the Masters and HPB, was a wise thing to do. 
> 
> Yet the direct relationship between unlimited sensualism and the 
end of civilizations is far documented in History and in religious 
scriptures, as I said in a osting yesterday. 
> 
> Although Sigmund Freud is widely attacked by some Theosophists, he 
clearly established the direct relation between the building of a 
civilization and sexual restraint/discipline. (This has to do with 
Saturn.)  
> 
> From that you can easily understand what we are seeing today: total 
indulgence of senses (drugs, sex, eating, killing, social injustice, 
corruption, lies everywhere, hypocrisy, etc.) and complete collective 
decadence, political, social and environmental. 
> 
> The technical side of esoteric philosophy cannot  be understood by 
the masses, and that's why "The Voice of the Silence", for instance, 
was dedicated "To The Few".
> 
> That does not mean despising anyone. May that be clear. 
> 
> 
> Regards,  Carlos. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Fri, 05 Jan 2007 02:35:09 -0000
> 
> Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: REMORSE AND ETHICS
> 
> > Hi Carlos,
> > 
> > You wrote :
> > "As to sexuality, esoteric philosophy guards an universal 
compassion 
> > for all ; 
> > yet it is very firm in teaching that sex, esoterically, is not 
about 
> > recreation
> > or sport ; it is about having children ; for which, of course, 
men 
> > need
> > women, and vice-versa."
> > 
> > I would postulate that sex is about more than procreation and 
that 
> > when someone is engaged in lovemaking it is more than recreation 
of 
> > course as with everything motives are mixed.
> > In my mind the act is about connectedness 
> > 
> > As we develop socially much of what we do relates to developing 
close 
> > relationships and bonds and finding our place in that society.
> > 
> > Sexual urges and attractions which during the teenage years are 
> > especially strong and stay with us to greater or lesser degrees 
> > through our lives.
> > 
> > People who have attractions sexually to members of the same sex 
as 
> > their own cannot help this attraction.
> > 
> > To expect gays and lesbians to not form couplings together and 
have 
> > sexual relationships with the partner they find themselves 
attracted 
> > to, would be like expecting heterosexual people to never do the 
same.
> > 
> > Hypothetically if you where asked to council a group of young gay 
> > teenagers as to how to develop health sexual relationships, what 
> > would you say?
> > Practice abstinence? 
> > 
> > If someone is following a self chosen path of celibacy that is 
> > something that person has chosen when they feel themselves ready 
and 
> > able.
> > 
> > However the majority of us are far from ready or able to consider 
> > that lifestyle.
> > 
> > We need to reconsider our attitudes to many things in life and 
> > frankly I don't think religion offers much in the way of 
constructive 
> > and progressive attitudes and ways of understanding sexuality.
> > 
> > To simply say abstain to me is quite ridiculous and is not 
helpful in 
> > any way.
> > 19 century attitudes to sex are quite outmoded and inappropriate 
in a 
> > modern progressive society.
> > 
> > Much better to accept the reality of sexual diversity and help 
people 
> > develop healthy and respectful relationships with one another as 
> > getting together is what we as human beings do.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Perry 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Perry,
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > > You say: 
> > > 
> > > "However Peck argues that valid feelings of guilt are 
important..."
> > > 
> > > I say: 
> > > 
> > > "In the ML, a Mahatma says that remorse "is a sure sign of 
Buddhic 
> > activity". 
> > > 
> > > So I must agree with your criticism about "new age" thinking 
and 
> > its neurotic avoidance of pain and painful subjects. In this, 
too, 
> > Scott Peck is perfectly in line and in harmony with esoteric 
> > philosophy. 
> > > 
> > > As to sexuality, esoteric philosophy guards an universal 
compassion 
> > for all ; yet it is very firm in teaching that sex, esoterically, 
> > is not about recreation or sport ; it is about having children ; 
> > for which, of course, men need women, and vice-versa. 
> > > 
> > > HPB wrote making a direct relation between the decadence and 
end of 
> > civilizations and sexual and other forms of physical indulgence 
nand 
> > moral decay. 
> > > 
> > > Western and Eastern scriptures (Christian Bible, Jewish Torah, 
> > Taoist 'Wen-tzu') make that direct relation, too. In fact, I made 
a 
> > long comparative study about that, but it is in Portuguese yet. 
> > > 
> > > Look at how things are now for our civilization, and you can 
> > recognize that direct relation between individual indulgence and 
> > collective decay. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Cópia:
> > > 
> > > Data:Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:50:07 -0000
> > > 
> > > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: Scott Peck on the Way
> > > 
> > > > Hello Carlos,
> > > > I agree, M Scott Peck's book emphasize the importance of 
facing 
> > > > issues squarely and honestly and examines some of the 
neuroses 
> > that 
> > > > can arise from avoidance of honestly facing important issues.
> > > > 
> > > > He speaks of what he calls "legitimate suffering" which is 
the 
> > often 
> > > > painful process we may go through when acting on our 
conscience.
> > > > 
> > > > The `new age' mindset and popular culture can often focus on 
how 
> > to 
> > > > avoid suffering and seek pleasure for self by avoiding or 
> > ignoring 
> > > > feelings of guilt.
> > > > 
> > > > However Peck argues that valid feelings of guilt are 
important as 
> > > > they are what hone our spiritual sensibilities and conscience.
> > > > 
> > > > Of course there are neurotic and inappropriate forms of guilt 
but 
> > by 
> > > > working carefully through these issues we can learn to 
discern 
> > what 
> > > > areas in our life may need fine tuning and what psychological 
> > rackets 
> > > > we may be still perpetuating,
> > > > 
> > > > this process can be painful and troubling as we have been 
> > programmed 
> > > > into a societal mindset that seeks pleasure and avoids pain.
> > > > 
> > > > Some feelings of guilt can simply be religious or parental 
> > > > programming that when we look at them are actually 
inappropriate 
> > and 
> > > > harmful but we need to go through our own process to 
determine 
> > that 
> > > > for ourselves.
> > > > 
> > > > Some of the attitudes that I have seen towards homosexuality 
on 
> > this 
> > > > list for example I would consider to be uncompassionate and 
> > > > unenlightened but many people still seem to consider 
> > homosexuality to 
> > > > be unnatural and a sin.
> > > > 
> > > > I would argue that this comes from a societal and more than 
> > likely 
> > > > religious program that sexuality has to manifest in a certain 
way 
> > and 
> > > > that it is only for procreation.
> > > > 
> > > > However for me this is simplistic and narrow reasoning and 
stems 
> > from 
> > > > the seeming inability of religion to deal with sexuality in 
any 
> > kind 
> > > > of reasoned, sensible and expansive way.
> > > > 
> > > > Life is diverse in the way it manifests itself and so are 
> > different 
> > > > ways we can examine and process things however if we are to 
try 
> > and 
> > > > look at things freshly and with an open mind we need to try 
and 
> > > > determine what is simple programming and what is actually a 
truer 
> > > > point of view.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Perry
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "cardosoaveline" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Perry,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I guess Scott Peck's writings are rather compatible with
> > > > > esoteric philosophy, and useful as to explain probationary
> > > > > processes. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > By the way, tests are unavoidable from the very 
> > > > > first step in the search for truth. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Probation, or tests, is not exclusive to those who are 
> > > > > "taken on probation" as disciples. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Probation, seen as tests, occurs at all levels of life 
> > > > development. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > A very good quotation, this, below.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Carlos. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to 
occur 
> > when 
> > > > > we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or 
unfulfilled. 
> > For 
> > > > it 
> > > > > is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that 
we 
> > are 
> > > > > likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for 
> > different 
> > > > ways 
> > > > > or truer answers." M Scott Peck
> > > > > 
> > > > > Perry
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente 
Terra.
> > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
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> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
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