Theos-Talk Archives (April 2007 Message tt00068)

Buddha did not plagiarize Jesus, simply because Buddha appeared six hundred years before the Jew Jesus. It was Jesus who plagiarized Buddha.
  
stillpointed <edaro@bellsouth.net> wrote:
          --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, leonmaurer@... wrote:

Great Post Len, keep on truckin'=======Ed

>
> Ralph,
> 
> Thank you for your taking the time to read my ABC web page and for 
your 
> welcome comments. After more than ten years of exposure on the 
various 
> consciousness study forums, very few have gone as deeply into it as 
you seem to have, 
> and with such a perceptive critique. 
> 
> Actually, that piece was written about fifteen years ago, and I 
have never 
> bothered to revise it... Although much thought has gone into it 
since then and 
> much polishing has been done to the basic theory. Therefore, 
there are some 
> elements in the original commentary that might be changed or played 
down 
> somewhat. However, I have not changed the underlying premise, 
which is based it on 
> the proposition that Consciousness (i.e., awareness, will, etc.) is 
one of 
> the fundamental dual aspects of the primal or mother SPACE that 
existed, in 
> abscondito, prior to the initial emanation and fractal field 
involution on the 
> spiritual level, that preceded the Big Bang at the fourth iteration 
that 
> constitutes the FALL of mind into matter -- which awakened our 
physical space time 
> continuum into its inflation, subsequent breaking of symmetry, 
precipitation of 
> fundamental particles, and later, consciously guided construction 
into 
> galaxies, stars, planets -- to eventually generate living forms 
that end with the 
> final evolution of mankind toward achieving the infinite 
intelligence and 
> consciousness of the initial source. This appears to be the basis 
of the biblical 
> statement that "God created Man in his (its) own image." But, 
then the God 
> spoken of there is actually the ten Sephiroth of the Hebrew "Tree 
of Life" in the 
> Kabbala (i.e., the true occult or oral esoteric basis of the Torah 
and Talmud 
> upon which the written or exoteric Bible, however distorted and 
twisted, is 
> based, and which Jesus based his entire body of teachings on). 
> 
> According to the Kabbala, or esoteric interpretation of the Torah, 
which is 
> similar to the Vedic or Hindu system -- it was these initial 
spiritually 
> conscious beings, Chohans or "Angels," on the third fractally 
involved Logos, that 
> guided the construction of the physical Cosmos after the "FALL"... 
Not the 
> "fall of Man" as in the biblical allegory of Adam and Eve, but as 
the overall 
> phenomenal field of Mind or Manas (Mahatma) that, falling from 
noumena to 
> phenomena, became the root of Man's higher nature (thinker-
observer) -- the real inner 
> spiritual Self, "soul" or "witness" which overshadows his lower 
evolved 
> animal nature or personal ego... This is the lower personal "self" 
that Buddha said 
> "has no real or permanent existence." 
> 
> In this sense, he was NOT referring to the higher self that is the 
> consciousness or spirit remaining in the individualized zero-point 
of absolute SPACE -- 
> that continues its individuality after death of the lower body and 
ego, to 
> reincarnate cyclically in new bodies (with no lower order memory of 
the previous 
> life) ... With such incarnations continuing until the individual 
resolves or 
> transcends all its past bad karma (or conscious disruptions of 
harmonious 
> nature) and attains Moksha or enlightenment, and merges with the 
universal or God 
> consciousness... While still maintaining its zero-point individual 
> consciousness. This, of course, is logically in accord with ABC and 
its initial premise of 
> the infinite divisibility of Absolute SPACE -- which is the only 
way we can 
> account for the non locality as well as the entanglement of 
conscious 
> experience in each individual on our physical plane.
> 
> Consistent with the ABC theory, I also see this "fall of Man," 
analogously 
> repeated later, as the incarnation of the lower seven Sephiroth 
into mankind 
> after the fourth fractal iteration of the physical universe is 
constructed (based 
> on the universal memory of its previous phenomenal existence) and 
after 
> organic life on Earth evolves into Mankind with sufficient brain 
development to 
> awaken mind. Thus, Universal Mind is evolved prior to physical 
Man and only 
> becomes awakened in individual thinkers, as both rational and 
intuitive mind, 
> after Mankind completes its evolution in the animal kingdom. 
> 
> But, that anthropogenesis is another story... And, beyond the scope 
of the 
> ABC theory... Which is only concerned with Cosmogenesis and the 
initial 
> fractally involved univrsal coenergetic fields -- which serve as 
the basis of all 
> analogous fields of mind and memory that carry the images or 
information of 
> phenomenal consciousness surrounding every zero-point of individual 
self awareness 
> and source of will power that we experience in our present bodies.
> 
> Thus, neither consciousness nor mind evolves (in a Darwinian 
sense) ... But 
> only Man's brain-body evolves -- so as to, after much experience 
and practice, 
> make full use of our mental and spiritual nature, to eventually, 
individually 
> return to the universal Spirit -- or "Become one with or 'yoked' to 
universal 
> or God consciousness," so to speak. 
> 
> Since the teachings of Jesus and that of Guatama, the Buddha, are 
almost 
> identical, we might understand, then, the common underlying 
relationship between 
> "yoga," as practiced in the East, and "religion," as practiced in 
the West... 
> Religion, derived from the Latin religare, binding or yoking (ref: 
ligament). 
> The Buddhist teaching is to become one with the universal 
consciousness and 
> thus achieve nirvana or enlightenment... As compared to the 
Christian idea of 
> taking the spirit of Christ into one's Heart. "Heart" being a 
metaphor for 
> one's individual self or soul, and the "spirit of Christ" being 
another name for 
> pure universal or God consciousness -- that can be achieved (as 
Jesus pointed 
> out allegorically to his disciples) by anyone with the proper 
knowledge and 
> practice leading to self realization. Unfortunately, this concept 
has been much 
> distorted in the West due to literal or dead letter interpretation 
of the 
> Biblical metaphors and allegories. 
> 
> But, these theological interpretations have little to do with the 
scientific 
> basis of ABC theory -- although they are entirely consistent with 
its truths, 
> as the fundamental basis underlying all religions (and their 
correct or 
> mistaken belief systems). The original Buddhist teachings, based 
on the scientific 
> metaphysics of the esoteric "Budhiism" (Skt.) of the ancient Book 
of the 
> Golden Precepts (Kiu-Te) -- without any anthropomorphic Gods to 
worship -- being 
> the closest to the true reality. 
> 
> Matter, then, is simply the other aspect of that primal SPACE -- 
initially, 
> in noumena, as its abstract motion or infinite angular momentum 
spinning on an 
> infinite number of axes at infinite velocities... Three axes of 
which are the 
> basis of our spherical universe consisting of all those fractally 
involved 
> fields, in coadunation but not in consubstantiality (like bubbles 
within bubbles 
> within bubbles) surrounding every zero-point spread throughout all 
of 
> configuration space. 
> 
> It's from that initial triple axial structure (Up-Down, N-S, E-W) 
that the 
> first octahedron (inscribed in a sphere) is derived, and that 
fractally involves 
> into the "Uniomniform" crystal of 6^3 (6x6x6) diamond shaped 
elements on the 
> physical plane. [This, incidentally, may be why St. John 
allegorically 
> labeled the material world (in contrast to the spiritual world of 
Christ) the 
> "beast" in revelation, and gave it the number 666.] 
> 
> Thus, "Everything in both 'Heaven' and 'Earth' are interconnected 
attributes 
> of one thing" -- as the ancient Hermetists say -- which both Jesus 
and Buddha 
> also knew. 
> http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/UNIOMNIFORMexploded.gif
> http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Fract-Expansion-Cosmos.gif 
> 
> I also understand this fractal geometry could very well be the root 
of the 
> "structured water crystal" that you speak of... And realize that 
such structure 
> could be the basis of the refraction's within any spherical field's 
geometric 
> center that could allow the storage of near infinite amounts of 
information at 
> different angles of incidence ... But only as holographic wave 
interference 
> patterns in the higher order spherical coenergetic fields 
themselves that 
> surround the zero-point centers and apexes of the 216 diamond 
shapes within every 
> Uniomniform crystal. 
> 
> Note that these fractal diamond crystal forms which are analogous 
to the 
> fractal involution of the universal ABC coenergetic fields, are 
also composed of 
> 8^3 (8x8x8) hollow tetrahedrons -- that could very well be the root 
of the 64 
> hexagrams (each a dual trigram or triple digram) of the Chinese I- 
Ching -- 
> which supposedly, by various combinations and changes of the yin 
(broken) or 
> yang (solid) lines in each of the 64 hexagrams can predict the "ten 
thousand" 
> things and act as an oracle. However, this is beyond the scope of 
the ABC 
> theory. Although, from a psychological point of view, you might 
find it 
> interesting to read Carl Jung's foreword to the Wilhelm's and 
Baynes' trabslation of the 
> I-Ching. http://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm
> 
> Since consciousness is the sole noumenal attribute of those zero-
points, 
> everything in the universe is potentially phenomenally conscious in 
varying 
> degrees depending on the neural complexity of the living organism. 
The highest form 
> being the human brain-body -- which can make full use, with proper 
training 
> and practice, of the higher order fields of mind and memory -- 
extending from 
> their rational aspects to their intuitive aspects. All unconscious 
or 
> instinctive processes can also be attributed the memories and 
instructions contained in 
> these fields and coenergetically imprinted prior to birth on the 
autonomic EM 
> field of the foetal brain. These levels can be easily imagined by 
studying 
> the following symbolic diagrams:
> 
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.ht
ml
> http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif
> http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Chakrafielddiag-fig.col.jpg
> http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/BuddhaBabyGordianKnot.gif
> 
> Thus, it's quite obvious that the "God" of ABC, and the "God" of 
Buddha (as 
> was also the "God" of Einstein) is that primal SPACE that existed 
as both 
> noumenal Consciousness and noumenal Matter prior to the first 
awakening of the 
> spiritual Cosmos along with the initial ten Sephirothal fields of 
universal 
> consciousness -- of which the lower seven Sephiroths are 
the "Builders" or 
> "Architects of the Universe" (as the Masons say). This, of course 
is why, when 
> speaking of the ABC theory and its conscious processes, besides 
denying any 
> supernatural processes -- I reject all references to a 
separate "personal God" and the 
> parallel divinity of Jesus as believed blindly through faith alone, 
by 
> organized Judeo-Christian religions of all denominations (this also 
includes the 
> Hebrew "God" when falsely anthropomorphized as a single 
supernatural individual 
> such as Jehovah). To Qoute H. P. Blavatsky in her article "Nature 
and Natures 
> God" <http://tinyurl.com/vecv> "It is not the One Unknown ever-
present God 
> in Nature, or Nature in abscondito that is rejected, but the God of 
human dogma 
> and his humanized "Word." In his infinite conceit and inherent 
pride and 
> vanity, man shaped it himself with his sacrilegious hand out of the 
material he 
> found in his own small brain-fabric, and forced it upon mankind as 
a direct 
> revelation from the one unrevealed SPACE.?
> 
> As for the rest of your questions and suggestions not covered 
above, I'll try 
> to answer them directly below in the body of your original letter.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Leon
> 
> In a message dated 3/31/07 9:54:37 AM, refrost@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Leon,
> > 
> > I was glad to read your web page
> > http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/
> > 
> > Interesting presentation and theory.  Well-written.  Thank you.
> > 
> > A couple of thoughts...
> > 
> > Not that it would be an easy thing to do,  but might there be 
another
> > moniker than ABC? A make-over, or revision, including a re-naming?
> > 
> I think that -- since this ABC (Astro Biological Coenergetics) 
theory 
> considers the macrocosm (Cosmos) as the analogous model of the 
microcosm (Man), and 
> that both their fundamental (conscious and living) natures are 
entirely 
> governed by their individual biology that coenergetically (i.e., 
inductive 
> resonantly) projects and reflects through all their fractally 
involved fields -- Astro 
> Biological Coenergetics almost exactly describes the basic unified 
field theory 
> that underlies both cosmogenesis and anthropogenesis. Since, it's 
an 
> undisputed fact that all matter, at any degree of substantiality, 
is nothing more 
> than energetic SPACE in varying degrees of motion... Therefore, all 
biological 
> processes -- on both the macrocosmic and the microcosmic levels, as 
well as on 
> or in quantum and sub quantum vacuum field levels -- must be 
governed by the 
> coenergetic interaction of those vibrational fields and the 
information they 
> carry. Therefore, to change this descriptive process 
nomenclature, would be to 
> change the fundamental basis of the entire theory -- which IMHO is 
entirely 
> out of the question... Since life is nothing more than the 
biological 
> interaction of coenergetic (electrodynamic) physical and astral or 
hyperspace fields in 
> conjunction with consciousness. :-)
> > 
> > Also, I disagree with the Essene/new age  portrayal of  Jesus 
since
> > the number of consistent written accounts going the other way are
> > much greater in number and there are, I think, certain coherent
> > advantages to not trivializing actual truth, but rather magnifying
> > Jesus in the large scheme of things.  I think, in fact, that
> > magnifying Jesus  may help to "make" your theory rather than 
detract
> > it --Â  "save your life, rather than lose it" as the verse 
goes.  That
> > is,  then you can solidly point toward the thousands of years of
> > discrete prophetic predictions, tying in with their astronomically
> > highly unlikely fulfillment in his one life.    "Jesus is the
> > answer", which may sound ridiculous to you on the surface,  still
> > turns out to be the foundational truth whether any of us like it 
of
> > not.  It's just a historical fact.
> > 
> I can't see how the view I have of Jesus as a great Master of 
Wisdom -- who 
> knew all the truths of Cosmogenesis that my theory logically 
explains and is 
> perfectly consistent with the Talmud's Kabbalistic interpretation 
that he knew 
> thoroughly -- has anything to do with making my theory more 
credible. In 
> fact, although his teachings may confirm it, an association of the 
theory with the 
> Biblical Jesus, just puts a religious belief to it -- rather than 
having a 
> sound scientifically logical basis related more to the cutting edge 
of string 
> and quantum field theories as well as the holographic paradigm of 
Bohm-Pribram, 
> and the microlepton theory of Iskakov among others.
> 
> As for the "historical fact" I doubt that the Jesus of the 
Christian Bible 
> ever really had an historical existence as they interpret it. 
(Although I'm sure 
> some wise Master of occult Knowledge spoke the words attributed to 
him) 
> And, i'm sure his supposed "divinity" is the same as that which any 
true yoga 
> Master (or anyone aspiring to become one) could obtain by deep 
meditative 
> practice of Rajah Yoga as described in the Yoga Aphorisms of 
Patanjali. For online 
> version, see: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/patanjal/patan-
hp.htm 
> 
> Didn't the Biblical Jesus say to his disciples, "You too, can do 
what I do"? 
> For more on how I understand Jesus, see: Who Was That Man Called 
J.C. <
> http://users.aol.com/graphinc/wwtmcjc.html>
> 
> As for Jesus being an Essene, it's quite obvious that the Essene 
philosophy 
> of the Nazarenes is identical to the teachings of both the Christ 
and the 
> Buddha. 
> 
> BTW, the phrase "save your life rather than lose it" refers to the 
real inner 
> life of spirit or one's higher nature that we have to save, rather 
than lose 
> its connection to the universal consciousness by falling into and 
becoming 
> attached to the world of Mammon. But, as a faithful follower of 
the Master 
> Jesus the Nazarene' (a.k.a. Rabbi Yeshuah Ben Yosef) -- I'm sure 
you already know 
> that. :-) 
> 
> Since I believe (both logically and experientially) in life after 
death of 
> the physical body -- having had a (later shown to be classic) near 
death 
> experience, as well as several confirmed out of body experiences... 
And, considering 
> the ABC reality -- based on cyclic beginnings and endings of all 
physical 
> existences, as well as the eternality of zero-point consciousness --
I realize the 
> possibility of both reincarnation and eternal nirvana. Therefore, 
I have no 
> reason to believe any of the religious teachings on those subjects -
- that 
> can only see such conscious existence after death as a spiritually 
materialistic 
> view of a Heaven and Hell -- which in my view are completely 
erroneous ideas. 
> Only reincarnation an its infinite justice can allow us to 
experience our 
> individual heaven's and hell[s right here on Earth where we 
initiated our good 
> or evil karma. 
> 
> As Buddha said (and Christ implied) "all that we are (as pure 
conscious 
> beings) is the result of what we have thought, and all that we will 
become (in this 
> or our next life) is what we are thinking now." Implying, 
correctly, that 
> mind is separate from brain and body, and that karma ("what we sow, 
so shall we 
> reap") governs our existence in or out of the body. As ABC also 
concludes, 
> such teachings are based on the fact that consciousness is eternal 
and 
> unchanging, while all physical existence can be changed, modified 
or manipulated -- 
> for good or evil -- depending on one's inner knowledge and motive 
for action.
> 
> In conclusion, I don't think that going any further into magnifying 
Jesus 
> would do anything to help the ABC theory, which is based solely on 
scientific and 
> mathematical reasoning, starting from zero and founded on a "new 
scientific 
> paradigm" that considers consciousness and matter as fundamental 
realities in 
> themselves, right from the get go... That is in direct 
contradiction of present 
> physical science's assumption that matter is fundamental and 
consciousness an 
> epiphenomena... While also denying the supernatural miracles and 
other and 
> mystical aspects of most organized religions. Vicarious atonement 
and 
> resurrection being examples. 
> 
> All that putting Jesus into the picture, as the believers see him, 
could do 
> -- would be to put the ABC theory into the same category as other 
mystical 
> nonsense that there can be "miracles" based on 
godlike "supernatural" powers. 
> ABC has no connection with such woolly minded thinking based on 
nothing but 
> blind faith in a literal interpretation of scriptures that have no 
historical 
> validity except through their own unverified and unfalsifiable 
assertions -- that 
> I can only attribute to priest-craft. In my view, all the so 
called miracles 
> were based on learned knowledge of the correlation of forces on all 
planes of 
> reality, along with a full understanding that will can be focussed 
and 
> directed consciously, and, at its fundamental level, is causative 
of all physical 
> phenomena. Thus, to be one with "God" consciousness at the primal 
zero-point 
> is to have Godlike powers. But, such powers are based solely on 
scientific 
> knowledge, both metaphysically and physically.
> 
> > I know it doesn't play well in the modern culture -- it never did,
> > but if you allow those examples in, which it seems you are saying
> > your theory does anyway, then the long predicted Messiah, and the
> > entire long account of the history of God's people comes from what
> > you call the "higher, spiritual" levels, which others of us  
already
> > have learned a bit about "by faith",  to  thankfully refer to as
> > relating with the living God.    It is, after all, 2007 orbits 
AFTER
> > the birth of Jesus.  That fact alone reveals that the event was
> > hugely "off the map"  in significance in human terms.  
Trivialize or
> > misrepresent the facts on that instance and what do you have?  
What
> > do you gain?
> > 
> I have never trivialized the fact that a Messiah could appear 
whenever there 
> was an historical or evolutionary need... But that Messiah could be 
anyone 
> that was there with the required knowledge and wisdom at the right 
time and 
> place. What Jesus has to do with the scientific world today is 
completely 
> irrelevant as I see it, especially with respect to my theory... 
Except, that most 
> of the wars and killing in this age are carried out in the name of 
both Jesus 
> and the so-called "living God" that he represents. As for 
trivializing Jesus 
> in the eyes of religious people who believe in him by faith, I 
regret that my 
> theory puts him in that light. But, as the great Master occultist 
he was, I 
> can never trivialize him and his message (if you understand the 
parables and 
> metaphors) that so closely are confirmed by my ABC theory. 
> 
> I can't see how the view I have of Jesus as a great Master of 
Wisdom -- who 
> knew all the truths of Cosmogenesis that my theory logically 
explains and is 
> perfectly consistent with the Talmud's Kabbalistic interpretation 
that he knew 
> thoroughly (as I incidentally, learned from my father and 
grandfather who, like 
> his, were learned Talmudists and Kabbalists) -- has anything to do 
with 
> making my theory more credible. In fact, although his teachings 
may confirm it, an 
> association of the theory with the Biblical Jesus, just puts a 
religious 
> belief to it -- rather than having a sound scientifically logical 
basis related 
> more to the cutting edge of string and quantum field theories as 
well as the 
> holographic paradigm of Bohm-Pribram, and the microlepton theory of 
Iskakov among 
> others.
> 
> As for the "historical fact" I doubt that the Jesus of the 
Christian Bible 
> ever really had an historical existence as they interpret it. 
(Although I'm sure 
> some wise Master of occult Knowledge spoke the words attributed to 
him) 
> And, i'm sure his supposed "divinity" is the same as that which any 
true yoga 
> Master (or anyone aspiring to become one) could obtain by deep 
meditative 
> practice of Rajah Yoga as described in the Yoga Aphorisms of 
Patanjali. For online 
> version, see: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/patanjal/patan-
hp.htm 
> 
> Didn't the Biblical Jesus say to his disciples, "You too, can do 
what I do"? 
> For more on how I understand Jesus, see: Who Was That Man Called 
J.C. <
> http://users.aol.com/graphinc/wwtmcjc.html>
> 
> As for Jesus being an Essene, it's quite obvious that the Essene 
philosophy 
> of the Nazarenes is identical to the teachings of both the Christ 
and the 
> Buddha. 
> 
> BTW, the phrase "save your life rather than lose it" refers to the 
real inner 
> life of spirit or one's higher nature that we have to save, rather 
than lose 
> its connection to the universal consciousness by falling into and 
becoming 
> attached to the world of Mammon. But, as a faithful follower of 
the Master 
> Jesus the Nazarene' (a.k.a. Rabbi Yeshuah Ben Yosef) -- I'm sure 
you already know 
> that. :-) 
> 
> Since I believe (both logically and experientially) in life after 
death of 
> the physical body -- having had a (later shown to be classic) near 
death 
> experience, as well as several confirmed out of body experiences... 
And, considering 
> the ABC reality -- based on cyclic beginnings and endings of all 
physical 
> existences, as well as the eternality of zero-point consciousness --
I realize the 
> possibility of both reincarnation and eternal nirvana. Therefore, 
I have no 
> reason to believe any of the religious teachings on those subjects -
- that 
> can only see such conscious existence after death as a spiritually 
materialistic 
> view of a Heaven and Hell -- which in my view are completely 
erroneous ideas. 
> Only reincarnation an its infinite justice can allow us to 
experience our 
> individual heaven's and hell[s right here on Earth where we 
initiated our good 
> or evil karma. 
> 
> As Buddha said (and Christ implied) "all that we are (as pure 
conscious 
> beings) is the result of what we have thought, and all that we will 
become (in this 
> or our next life) is what we are thinking now." Implying, 
correctly, that 
> mind is separate from brain and body, and that karma ("what we sow, 
so shall we 
> reap") governs our existence in or out of the body. As ABC also 
concludes, 
> such teachings are based on the fact that consciousness is eternal 
and 
> unchanging, while all physical existence can be changed, modified 
or manipulated -- 
> for good or evil -- depending on one's inner knowledge and motive 
for action.
> 
> In conclusion, I don't think that going any further into magnifying 
Jesus 
> would do anything to help the ABC theory, which is based solely on 
scientific and 
> mathematical reasoning, starting from zero and founded on a "new 
scientific 
> paradigm" that considers consciousness and matter as fundamental 
realities in 
> themselves, right from the get go... That is in direct 
contradiction of present 
> physical science's assumption that matter is fundamental and 
consciousness an 
> epiphenomena. 
> 
> All that putting Jesus into the picture, as the believers see him, 
could do 
> -- would be to put the ABC theory into the same catagory as other 
mystical 
> nonsense that there can be "miracles" based on god-
like "supernatural" powers. 
> ABC has no connection with such wooly minded thinking based on 
nothing but 
> blind faith in a literal interpretation of scriptures that have no 
historical 
> validity except through their own unverified and unfalsifiable 
assertions -- that 
> I can only attribute to priest-craft. In my view, all the so 
called miracles 
> were based on learned knowledge of the correlation of forces on all 
planes of 
> reality, along with a full understanding that will can be focussed 
and 
> directed consciously, and, at its fundamental level, is causative 
of all physical 
> phenomena. Thus, to be one with "God" consciousness at the primal 
zero-point 
> is to have God-like powers. But, such powers are based solely on 
scientific 
> knowledge, both metaphysically and physically.
> 
> > 
> > Or, considering Castenada's or Don Yuan's imagery,  opening up 
to the
> > inner world is a matter of life and death.   Why would they say
> > that?    Why would Castenada point out being a follower of
> > Christ  was "akin to"  being within another nagual system?
> > 
> Well, isn't it? Wasn't the Christ of the Bible, 
practicing "sorcery" (at 
> least in the eyes of his disciples) when he performed his so called 
miracles? 
> Doesn't that make him a "Nagual" (i.e., sorcerer) And, isn't a 
real "follower" 
> of that Christ only among his "disciples" to whom he gives the real 
> scientifically metaphysical knowledge of his "miracles", rather 
than "casting those 
> pearls among swine" (ignorant people) who blindly follow him. And 
isn't opening 
> up to the spiritual world a matter of "eternal life or death?" In 
the ABC 
> theory, it's easy to see how both karma and reincarnation can be 
facts of 
> nature, and that returning or yoking to the Cosmic spirit or 
consciousness could be 
> the source of eternal life in perfect bliss. In this view, "LIFE" 
can only 
> be spirit or consciousness -- not the brain-body that dissipates 
after 
> death... While the higher order fields of mind and memory continue 
for as long as 
> their higher order vibrations allow... Which, in the case of higher 
or intuitive 
> mind -- could be as long as the Sun (our local "universe" that 
supplies us 
> with the higher spiritual energies of LIFE) continues to exist. . 
> > 
> > And which path do you know which is a path with heart?   
Where'd you
> > learn about it? Might there be a deeper wisdom in first providing 
a
> > significant undeniable exemplar well before acquiring the broader 
knowledge?
> > 
> There cannot be any "undeniable exemplar" when discussing the 
nature of the 
> higher order fields and their energies -- since it can only be 
proven 
> subjectively by self devised and self determined study and effort --
which requires 
> deep meditative practice a la Patanjali. This practice, also 
leads to "Self 
> realization" or enlightenment. The Heart Doctrine, BTW, is based 
on the inner 
> knowledge that one's individual consciousness is also the 
consciousness of 
> all... Therefore, what one does to another is, "as if it were done 
to oneself." 
> 
> The Heart Doctrine and path was taught to me (besides the teachings 
of Jesus 
> and Guatama, which verifies the conclusions I also arrived at 
through a deep 
> understanding of the ABC theory and its self judgemental 
consequences based on 
> the laws of karma, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." etc.) through a 
small 
> devotional book called "The Voice of the Silence" by H. P. 
Blavatsky. 
> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice.htm
> And through another book, "The Light on the Path" by Mabel Collins. 
> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/lightpat/lightpat.htm
> 
> > That is, if we are to all open up to "worship in spirit and in
> > truth",  is it wise to not emphasize but to put aside the advice 
to
> > love God with  heart, mind, strength and soul, and to love one's
> > neighbor as one's self?   To not speak of what is given?
> > 
> Yes, I think it's very wise to teach the real truth behind the 
admonition to 
> love God and one's neighbor as oneself -- since the ABC theory 
proves (to 
> those who understand it) that these "selves" or apparent individual 
consciousness 
> are all identical right from the Cosmic primal beginning. 
> Self-acknowledgment of such truths through ones inner knowledge is 
far more conducive to 
> practice than the admonition based on blind faith in a separate 
God. For, if all 
> such blind believers in a personal God, vicarious atonement, and a 
divine Jesus 
> would follow such admonition, there would be no more wars fought by 
Christians 
> and Muslims who pray to their same God to defeat their enemies. 
How does 
> that jibe with "love thy neighbor as thyself"? Who are they 
kidding? 
> > 
> > Also,     I note from
> > http://www.medhelp.org/forums/neuro/archive/8916.htmlÂ;  that
> > aftereffects of a pinealectomy  is not immediate death or coma or
> > total disruption of  consciousness or memory or imagination.  
   This
> > fact, to me, disrupts the connections and roles  you pose to the
> > pineal gland.   Thoughts? Remedies?
> > 
> My knowledge of the Pineal came through an endocrinologist who was 
talking 
> about using a deep electromagnetic probe to examine the brain, long 
before the 
> advent of MRI's and minimal invasive computerized surgery 
techniques. 
> Therefore, I do not give much credence to anecdotal information 
regarding the removal 
> of a brain tumor in on the pineal gland, which may not have removed 
the entire 
> pineal gland, or entered its hollow interior... Although, it may 
have 
> interrupted the nerve paths that trigger the manufacture and 
release of melatonin. 
> While I doubt that much is known about the inner nature of the 
hollow gland in 
> vitro... Today, I no longer have to speculate about the pineal 
being the visual 
> theater, since the zero-point consciousness hypothesis does not 
require a 
> physical link to the higher order light which we see inside our own 
mind -- which 
> field is separate from the brain in a higher order hyperspace 
beyond the 
> reach of physical mechanisms. Although, I can still consider an 
analogous 
> Uniomniform crystal as a focusing mechanism that is in either a 
liquid (water), 
> physical (silicon) or astral/hyperspace form -- since the actual 
mechanism of 
> holographic reconstruction of images stored as interference 
patterns on the 
> surface of the higher order fields has not yet been fully defined --
other than 
> projection of a higher order coherent radiation from the zero-point 
of perception 
> in the center of the brain between the eyes and the ears adjacent 
to or in 
> the pineal gland itself.
> > 
> > Having ~worked with an "allspace-filling"Â  magnetic tetrahedral
> > imagery, I enjoyed thinking  about your notion of octahedra 
stacking
> > to form octahedra, etc.   I think the tetrahedral formwork is 
well
> > represented throughout the body in an analogous manner as the 
water
> > molecules, either present of those formed during aerobic
> > respiration.   Vibrations of that molecular array  is the 
widget that
> > I think   transcribes signals "downward/upward".  The ++--
> > tetrahedral-like form is present and continually replenished in a
> > wildly uniform manner in all of us anyway, so it's easy to view 
that
> > array as an antenna, generating and receiving various patterns.
> > 
> While I have no doubt that the water molecules form a Uniomniform 
crystal 
> analog (which is a combination of octahedral shapes separated by 
hollow 
> tetrahedral shapes in the ratio 6:8) I do not think that such water 
molecules or such 
> shapes in other media have any relationship to the storage of 
memory -- since 
> such information can only be stored as interference patterns in the 
fundamental 
> fields that compose the hyperspace fields as well as the 
electrodynamic 
> fields of any physical form starting with the smallest fundamental 
particle. 
> Although such crystalline shapes have some relationship to the 
transmission of the 
> information IOW, the ABC theory postulates that everything in the 
universe is 
> composed of electrodynamic fields of fundamental SPACE in vibratory 
motion, 
> and like radio waves, such radiation's can carry modulated wave 
interference 
> patterns that form holograms at varying angles of incidence related 
to the 
> reflecting surfaces of the analogous Uniomniform geometry within 
all spherical 
> fields at any level of substantiality. 
> > 
> > I use the same artifact for the inner analog language for all the
> > senses, imagination, and certainly for the short-term
> > memory.   Hooking "bound water" layers with proteins also makes 
for
> > some energetically very persistent artifacts so the long term 
memory
> > could fashioned, rather simply, I think,   in the bound water 
layer.
> > 
> I doubt this -- since there is no mechanism that prevents the 
evaporation of 
> water which action disrupts its crystalline nature (except possibly 
on its 
> higher order hyperspace field radiation's). This possibility is 
what I think 
> accounts for the "phantom DNA" detected in some recent Russian 
experiments using 
> Kirlian photography. 
> > 
> > Of course,  those knots and twists in the ordered water have
> > associated or complementary vibrating field imageries so I see
> > similarities in the descriptions.
> > 
> > Do you?
> > 
> Yes, but I'm not sure it's the same way you see them. :-)
> > 
> > Also, what are your thoughts on prayer?  Where do you stand on 
it?
> > 
> I am totally neutral about it, since the only prayer I know of is 
meditation 
> on the nature of the true self-of-one -- which is the Self-of-
all. This 
> corresponds to Jesus' admonition to "pray to your God in your own 
private 
> chamber" -- meaning, in the mind... With the Self-of-all, or 
the "Universal 
> Consciousness" being that "God". As for prayer to a non 
existent supernatural 
> personal God outside of one's own higher self (or as the occultists 
say, "the 
> Master within us all"-- I believe it is a complete waste of time 
and energy. 
> 
> The reason â??not to tellâ?? about what you learn in such prayer or 
meditation, 
> is that it would be throwing pearls at swine. :-) 
> 
> Best wishes, 
> Leon
> 
> > 
> > Best regards,
> > Ralph
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **************************************
> See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
> 
> 
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