Theos-Talk Archives (June 2007 Message tt00058)

Mark, 
But, John did ask about the "existence" of consciousness.   Also, presumely, 
he meant under the term "consciousness," both awareness and will.

Besides, since when would a request for a dictionary meaning of the word 
"exist" lead to a "deeper discussion" about the source, ontology or nature of 
consciousness?   

So, your response doesn't really answer the question asked (and others 
implied) -- since its only an off the top of your head opinion -- with no scientific 
or rational explanation of the "processes" that supposedly cause 
consciousness (CS) to evolve.   This seems like you are conflating subjectivity and 
objectivity as having the same causative physical substrate.

I thought it was only matter (genes) or human conditioning (memes) that can 
evolve, and even those (as currently believed by science) through the effect of 
random mutation caused by material radiation, or psychological conditioning 
retained in archetypal memory (which science also can't explain without making 
off the wall assumptions or huge guesses). :-) 

Therefore, would you be so kind as to explain how pure subjectivity (i.e., CS 
as awareness, will, etc.) can "evolve" -- and from what causative substrate 
it evolves from?   And, please explain it as simply as possible, so a right 
brain graphical thinker (and trained engineer) like me can visualize its process 
sequence with no illogical jumps or gaps in the causative chain.

I'm sure everyone would also interested in knowing the mechanisms, whereby 
such a state (if CS can be considered a state of existence of ALL sentient life 
forms) changes its fundamental nature of awareness and will, and how that 
change takes place, and from what root condition or aspect of fundamental SPACE do 
those characteristics of CS stem from and blossom into effective and 
affective experiential and causative reality?   Such as, explaining the way one might 
objectively know how the initial living forms of matter arise and evolve, or 
how non living matter itself evolves from the primal singularity and produces 
CS?   That is, if the primal source was not both potentially subjectively aware 
and willful, as well as potentially objectively material and formable right 
from the  start?   (To say that CS just "emerges" or "arises" from any aspect 
or condition of matter, without any logical justifications, just doesn't cut 
it.)   IOW, please show us how matter creates consciousness?   

Also, since consciousness cannot be considered without mind -- such 
explanation would have to include the cause and nature of mind, its linkages to memory 
and brain-body on all sensory channels, as well as explain the method of 
information storage, transformation and transmission between those entities, 
including describing the source and nature of will energy along with the mechanisms 
that intentionally causes the body and its extremities to move in exact 
coordinated relationship in and through the surrounding 3D world -- parts of which 
are also in motion by conscious intent... e.g.; Cars racing down the roads that 
one has to avoid bumping into. ;-)   

Incidentally, when I speak of "consciousness" -- I mean awareness + potential 
qualia + discernment, discrimination, choice, selection, determination, AND 
causative will or energetically empowered intent to directly cause matter to 
change its condition, position, shape, state, etc. 

IOW, explain how (according to your notion) matter can be aware of, move, or 
otherwise manipulate itself?   And, explain the material substrate of consc
iousness? ...   That is, if both experiential and causative/creative CS as well 
as potential matter (and all its possible forms) were NOT the essential aspect 
of the initial "singularity" of primal SPACE that gave birth to the entire 
Universe at the big bang, and which is now spread everywhere throughout the 
Planck vacuum at the center of its ZPE source... Which would explain it all without 
any vague and unfounded epiphenomenal or evolutionary theory -- neither of 
which has any foundation in any proven physical science (that requires no 
preconceived assumptions that consciousness can't exist independently of physical 
phenomenal matter).

In my view, reductive science, so far, under its present unfounded 
assumptions that matter is causative and explains the nature of all existing reality 
(including consciousness in all its subjective afferent and efferent aspects 
throughout all of nature) -- just doesn't hack it.   

But, I'm sure we are all eagerly waiting to hear your story of the origin, 
evolution and experience of consciousness and its linkages to mind and brain.

Leon Maurer 

In a message dated 6/7/07 3:02:12 AM, mpeaty@arach.net.au writes:


> Like everything else in the universe, the universe itself, and
> indeed whatever it is that is entailed in the idea of
> 'universe', the processes which manifest as what we call
> consciousness evolved. And will continue to do so.
> 
> Now if you had asked about 'existence', or _what does 'exist'
> mean?_ or_how come there is anything at all?_
> that would get you a much deeper discussion.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mark Peaty  CDES
> 
> mpeaty@arach.net.au
> 
> http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
> 

In a message dated 6/6/07 8:31:45 PM, compiler@wisdomworld.org writes:


> To Leon Maurer  Everyone: 
> 
> Where does consciousness begin in the universe?
>  Leon, I hope that I am more or less correct in my
> understanding of all that you write about in this forum, which is that,
> in my way of saying it, the starting point for everything, that great
> unknown, so-called, that everything must rest in in order to come into
> existence throughout the cosmos, such as the scientific Big Bang, all
> other Big Bangs, and all related ideas such as the Multiverse, Absolute
> Space, and so on with all of the different ways that you, and everyone
> else here, describe the different levels, planes, fields, infinite
> universes, and so on about how it all works, is that it all rests in,
> emanates out of, begins, exists, evolves, goes back into, and so on, to
> the source of all levels of cosmic activity and action -- which you say
> is CONSCIOUSNESS. . I won't personally be repying to anyone, but I would
> like to get as many views as possible from Leon and everyone else about
> this -- meaning views on whether consciousness at every level that we
> know about, in all the kingdoms, with thinking self-consciousness being
> at the top of them all, comes from UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS that is the
> source and guidance and memory of everything, or not? -- or does
> self-consciousness evolve, little by little, out of the lowest forms in
> all the kingdoms that we know of on our planet, on other planets, in our
> galaxy, in all other galaxies, in all the invisible levels and planes
> that we know about, and in all others that we probably don't know about
> yet? . Leon, in advance, I want to most sincerely thank you, and
> everyone else who offer their views. . 
> 
> Compiler (John DeSantis) . 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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