Theos-Talk Archives (February 2008 Message tt00080)

Dear Adelaisie

Thank you for your most elegant and considerate reply 
as usual. 
Thank you too for your heartfelt "blog" comments in our 
local Australian newspaper which has bravely raised the 
issue of the cruelty of whale slaughter and maintained 
it despite the obvious diplomatic and trade penalties 
which may follow. 
http://blogs.thewest.com.au/news/news-blog-should-we-intervene-to-
stop-this-slaughter/


In your recent posting here you write, "?the animal 
kingdom willingly sacrifices itself that humans may be 
nourished. It is a noble sacrifice, after all, putting the 
welfare of others ahead of one's own welfare. Animals 
show unconditional love, as many pet owners have
testified."


Once again this presupposes that animals, or animal 
consciousness, has the self conscious ability to altruistically 
choose to sacrifice their life that humans might live instead 
of them.


This would seem to be at variance to most evolutionary 
theories where instinctual survival of individual or species 
reigns supreme.  


>From my present understanding of the Theosophical 
process, instinct is brought into being by intelligent, 
energy aggregations, or "vortices" perhaps, termed in 
Theosophy Dhyan Chohans, in their role as builders or 
cosmocratores of the cosmologic process.


In simple terms, these builders we are told bring forth a 
new scheme based on its predecessor so that our current 
Kosmos, or manifestation of Consciousness, "takes up 
where it left off last time", pursuant to karmic requirements.


In our present evolutionary scheme of Consciousness, 
it appears instinct precedes thought which precedes 
self consciousness which precedes conscious, altruistic 
and compassionate thought and action, which leads to 
Self consciousness or Unity.


It would appear from this that most animals, or animal 
consciousness, in the wild or factory at least, have not 
yet had the opportunity to evolve self consciousness 
themselves, or indeed from humans, if that is possible. 
It would seem then that our "wild cousins" are still subject 
to the "program" of instinctual response "inherited" from 
the previous and present evolutionary scheme.  


It is true many animals, usually "domesticated" or socialised 
in some way, appear to love "unconditionally." As a pet and 
animal lover from early childhood I can attest to many 
experiences where "unconditionality" seems to be, particularly 
from the numerous dogs with which we have shared and 
currently share our lives. 


Nonetheless, "unconditionality" is not necessarily what is 
occurring, however much we might like to anthropomorphise 
our dear friends. 
For example, a more sophisticated rapport, 
recognising our alpha status from early feeding and bonding 
may be expressing another form of survival instinct. In the 
case of pets I certainly prefer to term and experience it as 
reciprocal love. But this may not be entirely accurate 
however much our hearts are touched. 

In context of the above, this position could well be perceived 
to actually devalue the status of animals, at least animals in 
the wild. However from my perspective this actually heightens 
my sense of responsibility and compassion towards them. 
Quite apart from their necessary, required and vital role in 
our evolutionary scheme, if human consciousness is not 
used to protect or defend the weakest and most defenceless 
among us, then what is it for?  

Your perspective of respect and gratitude may well urge 
humanity to a return to our previously held, instinctual 
respect and consideration for animals whilst we slaughter them. 

Respect and gratitude are extraordinarily important qualities. 
But to me, the great danger of ascribing them in this way is 
that many people may use these qualities, however worthy 
from your position, to validate and justify ongoing slaughter 
and cruelty where this may no longer be required. 

In affluent societies we no longer need to kill and eat animals 
for our survival. As mentioned in my previous post, this then 
becomes a matter of choice, which we must each be free to 
make without "judgement" or condemnation of any kind 
from anyone, whichever choice we make.

Without condemnation of any kind is essential. Most people 
consider killing and eating animals as entirely appropriate, 
many viewing it as the natural order of things. 

And some of us, perhaps wishing otherwise, are not yet 
in full control of our vehicles, and continue to eat meat.

It may be a gradual process and we may need to take 
small steps in human consciousness, but however well 
intended, validating the justification of slaughtering animals,
 where they do not need to be, runs the risk of watering 
down our opportunity to see this issue in a completely new 
way.

In "fortunate", affluent societies, given our privileged lifestyle, 
where our physical survival is largely no longer at risk, can 
we not move to a new mindset? Can we not move to the 
mindset where we can discuss, debate and accept each 
others' perspectives and lifestyle, without "judgement" or 
condemnation, whilst at the same time challenging them 
respectfully and being open to completely new ways of 
approaching the way we think, feel and live.  

These words are from Ella Wheeler Wilcox, author, poet 
and theosophical student in the early years of the movement:

I am the voice of the voiceless: 
  Through me, the dumb shall speak; 
Till the deaf world's ear be made to hear 
  The cry of the wordless weak. 

>From street, from cage, and from kennel, 
  From jungle and stall, the wail 
Of my tortured kin proclaims the sin 
  Of the mighty against the frail.

For love is the true religion, 
  And love is the law sublime; 
And all that is wrought, where love is not, 
  Will die at the touch of time. 

And Science, the great Revealer, 
  Must flame his torch at the Source; 
And keep it bright, with that holy light 
  Or his feet shall fail on the course. 

For he who would trample kindness 
  And mercy into the dust-- 
He has missed the trail, and his quest will fail: 
  He is not the guide to trust. 

Oh shame on the mothers of mortals 
  Who have not stopped to teach 
Of the sorrow that lies in dear, dumb eyes, 
  The sorrow that has no speech. 

Oh, never a brute in the forest, 
  And never a snake in the fen, 
Or ravening bird, starvation stirred, 
  Has hunted his prey like men. 
For hunger, and fear, and passion 
  Alone drive beasts to slay, 
But wonderful man, the crown of the Plan, 
  Tortures, and kills, for play.

The same force formed the sparrow 
  That fashioned Man, the King; 
The God of the Whole gave a spark of soul 
  To each furred and feathered thing. 

And I am my brother's keeper, 
  And I will fight his fight, 
And speak the word for beast and bird, 
  Till the world shall set things right. 


Thank you again Adelaisie.

Kind regards
Nigel 



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Nigel,
> 
> Perhaps in the individual sense one could not say that the animal 
> offered itself. But on some level of consciousness, the collective 
> level perhaps, it might be said that the animal kingdom willingly 
> sacrifices itself that humans may be nourished. It is a noble 
> sacrifice, after all, putting the welfare of others ahead of one's 
> own welfare. Animals show unconditional love, as many pet owners 
have 
> testified. 
> 
> In the Pacific Northwest, when the tribe of Native Americans needed 
> to replenish its supply of the products they gleaned from a whale, 
> the hunters prayed and fasted and did ceremonies to bring a whale 
to 
> them. When they were ready the band of twelve hunters launched 
their 
> long canoe into the Pacific Ocean and began searching for a whale. 
At 
> home the wives fasted and prayed for a successful hunt. If the 
search 
> was successful, the hunters threw a harpoon into the whale and then 
> rode their canoe behind it until they were able to bring it to its 
> side and tow it back to the beach near their village. They sent 
> prayers of gratitude to the spirit of the whale, who, it might 
seem, 
> must have participated in the process. If you can imagine a 20 foot 
> canoe and twelve men armed with wooden spears catching a whale, 
when 
> that whale, which is quite a lot larger than the canoe itself, and  
> had the whole wide ocean in which to roam, it seems likely that 
there 
> is some level of understanding of the meaning of altruism in the 
> animal kingdom which transcends that in the human kingdom. 
> 
> Gratitude is a very powerful principle. It completes the cycle of 
> supply and demand that keep us alive and provides us with what we 
> need to live spiritually as well as physically. We ask for what we 
> want, we receive what we need, and our gratitude for the gift, 
> whatever it may be, closes the cycle of the energy required and 
> prepares it for the next such cycle. If we are not aware of any 
sense 
> of gratitude, we leave an empty place in the "hoop of life," which 
> someday must be mended. It seems we have a lot of mending to do. 
> 
> Adelasie
> 
> On 10 Feb 2008 at 6:00, nhcareyta wrote:
> 
> > Dear Adelaisie
> > 
> > You write, "...if we are aware of the sacrifice offered us by 
> > the animal who died..."
> > 
> > This seems to imply that the animal voluntarily offered itself to 
be 
> > slaughtered "that we may be fed."
> > 
> > Surely this is not what you meant?
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "adelasie" <adelasie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Friends,
> > > 
> > > It is never too late to make a change. Consciousness is 
everything. 
> > > Even if we eat meat, if we are aware of the sacrifice offered 
us by 
> > > the animal who died that we may be fed, if we express gratitude 
to 
> > > it, to the universe which provides us with sustenance, we are 
> > making 
> > > a difference. Bit by bit more and more people will remember 
that we 
> > > are a part of nature, that what happens to other of nature's 
> > children 
> > > also happens to us. We can help to bring about that change of 
> > > consciousness.
> > > 
> > > Adelasie
> > > 
> > > On 9 Feb 2008 at 22:58, MKR wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I think if we are able read and see cruelty and recognize 
what it 
> > is, that
> > > > is the very important first step. Many who watched the videos 
and 
> > saw what
> > > > was written may not have paid any attention to or recognition 
of 
> > cruelty.
> > > > Once cruelty is recognized, then each one of us can respond 
to 
> > the best of
> > > > our ability.
> > > > 
> > > > Everyday, we read about the number of people killed and hurt 
by 
> > war and
> > > > other acts of Nations for varied reasons justified by 
> > politicians. Most do
> > > > not see or recognize the cruelty that man is perpetrating on 
> > other human
> > > > beings. Once we see the cruelty, each one of us can decide 
how to 
> > respond
> > > > and take action in our own way. We may not change the world 
or 
> > set right the
> > > > cruel practices in a day. But we have to make a start by not 
> > directly or
> > > > indirectly supporting these activities, instead of trying to 
put 
> > band aid on
> > > > the results of these activities. As time goes on, if more and 
> > more people
> > > > start recognizing the truth, then a day will come that there 
will 
> > be a mass
> > > > movement against cruel practices. Let us all start in our 
little 
> > way.
> > > > 
> > > > mkr
> > > > On 2/9/08, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >   We continually eat fear and lower our vibrations through 
> > consuming
> > > > > animals. I am hypocrite enough to admit that I thank the 
animal 
> > for giving
> > > > > up its existence for me, but it really is a band aid, if I 
was 
> > serious about
> > > > > the morality of it, I wouldn't eat the animal in the first 
> > place.
> > > > > Even in this day and age I am quite certain that when a cow 
is 
> > slaughtered
> > > > > none of its parts are wasted. I guess we grew up believing 
that 
> > our bodies
> > > > > needed this protein as well as being told that animals were 
put 
> > here for
> > > > > man's smorgasboard. Both are clearly lies. Yes we are 
savages, 
> > moreso,
> > > > > because we have developed intelligence, which doesn't seem 
to 
> > have made much
> > > > > difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Cass
> > > > >
> > > > > adelasie <adelasie@ <adelasie%40sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> > > > > Interesting comparison, Cass,
> > > > >
> > > > > ...as barbaric as a savage eating the heart of a lion to 
> > transfer its
> > > > > strength to the eater.
> > > > >
> > > > > The "savages" might have known more than we do about the 
unity 
> > of all
> > > > > life. To pray to the animal to come so that the people 
might be 
> > fed,
> > > > > or the courage might be shared, to use all the parts of the 
> > animal
> > > > > for goods that would be made by hand, the only source of 
such 
> > goods,
> > > > > to express gratitude to the animal for its sacrifice, to 
face 
> > the
> > > > > animal on foot with hand made weapons, this presents quite a
> > > > > different scenario. Now we use technology to create weapons 
> > that no
> > > > > animal could survive. Do we use all the parts of the animal 
and 
> > waste
> > > > > nothing? Do we express our gratitude to another life form 
for 
> > its
> > > > > sacrifice that we may live? Do we kill an animal so that 
our 
> > tribe
> > > > > can survive? Or are we motivated by profit above all?
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems reasonable to realize that the Japanese are not 
the 
> > only
> > > > > nation engaged in some such activity. Maybe we are 
> > the "savages."
> > > > >
> > > > > Adelasie
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! 
> > Mobile. Try it
> > > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > 
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