Theos-Talk Archives (February 2008 Message tt00412)

Dear Cass

Thank you for your comment.

You write, "These contacts justified the 
establishment of these fringe societies?"

Yes, this is certainly the case. From what I 
consider to be a misunderstanding of Madame 
Blavatsky's words, numerous groups, some quite 
large, have used statements out of context and 
produced just what you say, organisations and 
individuals that "demean the intelligence of a 
Master."


You write, "Why would any Master be interested in 
sharing his initiations with anyone? This would be 
a strictly private matter and to be shared only 
with his closest adepts and chelas."

Once again, from my perspective, yes indeed. 
Moreover, occult initiations, rather than those 
offered generally and in public by Buddhists, are 
deeply "personal" or individual, pertaining to the 
individual's unique characteristics and circumstances. 
No two individuals have the same predispositions, 
life history and current conditions. This is why even 
in "exoteric" Tibetan Buddhism a personal teacher is 
considered necessary to suggest the appropriate 
training for the various processes involved.
There is no such thing as "one size fits all" at the 
levels of initiation.

Kind regards
Nigel



--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Frank and Nigel
>   I had another read of the article and it seems to me that 1975 
was a big year in terms of KH contacts.  These contacts justified the 
establishment of these fringe societies and demean the intelligence 
of a Master.  Why would any Master be interested in sharing his 
initiations with anyone?  This would be a strictly private matter and 
to be shared only with his closest adepts and chelas.  As far as I am 
concerned there has been no direct contact from the masters since HPB 
left this plane.
>    
>   I guess we have to ask ourself if humanity, theosophy,  has 
improved and purified its prejudices and dogmatic illusions so that 
minds are ready for 'the next impulse'.  HPB clearly states, without 
saying, that if this has not occured then their would be no benefit 
in a new teacher bringing the next impulse.
>    
>   I would be happy if Book 4 of the Secret Doctrine could be 
found.  Why don't the Masters channel that information!!!!
>    
>   Cass
>    
>   Blavatsky wrote in 1889:   "If the present attempt, in the form 
of our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then 
it will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when 
the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general 
condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and 
purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said, their 
prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at 
least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible 
literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a 
numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new torch-
bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his 
message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths 
he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove 
the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his 
path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is
>  given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the 
Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen 
years, with out any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of 
hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all this, 
and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the 
Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its 
original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I say, if 
I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-
first century in comparison with what it is now!"  H.P. Blavatsky, 
The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co., 1889), pp. 
306-307.   Return to Text   
>   
> 
> nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> wrote:
>           Dear Frank
> 
> As a supplementary point, perhaps you might read 
> the full article by Mr Schuller to see more 
> of the context in which he writes and from which 
> I comment.
> 
> http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/story.html
> 
> Regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Nigel:
> > 
> > Perhaps it's our usage of English, which is making
> > our concepts difficult to understand each other's
> > position, because what you have written above is
> > not what I have said.
> > ------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > 
> > Indeed, I need to improve my English.
> > Your answer shows me the (my?) misunderstandings.
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > Nigel:
> > 
> > Please simply state what you believe to be your
> > evidence.
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > Frank:
> > 
> > I never believed to have an evidence.
> > So I kindly asked you, what would you accept as evidence?
> > So perhaps I can give you this evidence.
> > What is your evidence, say, that Masters really exist?
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > Nigel:
> > 
> > My perspective remains, until proven otherwise,
> > that whilst Madame Blavatsky wrote about the
> > potential for coming teachers, she always couched
> > it in terms of "if" such as, "And if her place is
> > even filled up, perchance by another worthier and
> > more learned than herself, still there remain but
> > a few years to the last hour of the term -- namely,
> > till December the 31st, 1899."
> > "First Preliminary Memorandum" issued Madame
> > Blavatsky in 1888 to the members of the E.S.
> > 
> > Here she clearly wasn't speaking in terms of a
> > fait accompli despite what other commentators might
> > assume and write with such authority.
> > In previous posts I have provided other examples of
> > quotes from Madame Blavatsky supporting this contention.
> > 
> > Even Dr Purucker writes, "As she herself points out
> > in substance: someone will follow me in all likelihood."
> > 
> > Even from him, note his qualifiers, "in substance"
> > thereby not referring to a direct quote. And, "in
> > all likelihood". Once again, not conclusively
> > predictive.
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > Frank:
> > 
> > I again do not understand what your problem is.
> > What do you mean by "even Dr Purucker writes", as if it is 
> something 
> > strange, what he said.
> > It's the most logic thing he said.
> > 
> > HPB came to do certain work.
> > But the success, or the degree of success, depended on the growth 
> of the 
> > souls of her co-workers.
> > So no conclusively predictive was possible, at least publicly, 
> because for 
> > every soul there are always two paths and HPB had no right to 
> suppress the 
> > free will.
> > 
> > ------------------------------ 
> > Nigel:
> > 
> > We can hide behind the veil of esotericism as
> > our presumed authority, but this runs the real
> > and actual risk of people assuming that HPB
> > stated that a master would definitely appear
> > before 1899 and again in 1975.
> > 
> > ------------------------------ 
> > Frank:
> > 
> > To me it's quite the other way round:
> > esotericism is the only real world of which I know of.
> > HPB never stated that a master would definitely appear before 
1899, 
> because 
> > it depended of the karma of her co-workers.
> > Were all her chelas fallen like Annie Besant, no Master would 
have 
> appeared 
> > before 1899.
> > But not all her chelas were fallen, several stood the test, like 
> Henry T. 
> > Edge (for example).
> > But that does not mean that she did not work towards this 
> possibility and 
> > was merely in a wait and see position.
> > 
> > In 1888 or 1889 she asked her closest co-worker William Judge, 
> whether he 
> > has found his new chela or not.
> > Judge also confirms that he several times has discussed with (the 
> then still 
> > incarnated) HPB about the new hope, the new paraclete and that 
she 
> knew that 
> > this new chela would build in teh West a theosophical school as 
so 
> fulfill 
> > HPB's highest dreams, a task, which she was handicapped to 
fulfill.
> > 
> > But if the situation had taken place, that all her chelas went 
away 
> or 
> > became untrue, no paraclete would have appeared and no school had 
> build.
> > And "they" had to wait until 1975, because in every last quarter 
of 
> a 
> > century a messenger of the Masters appears in the West since 
Tsong-
> kha-pa.
> > I call it the outer messengers in analogy to outer rounds.
> > 
> > ------------------------------ 
> > Nigel:
> > 
> > This thereby creates the potential for messianic
> > mindset and preparation such as occurred from some
> > of the "later messengers" including Bishop Leadbeater
> > and Dr Besant of the Theosophical Society, Adyar.
> > 
> > Messianic mindset and preparation, or preparation of
> > any kind, produces blind followers and devotees, and
> > creates the potential for authority figures who claim
> > to "know."
> > 
> > ------------------------------ 
> > Frank:
> > 
> > True, but that obviously did not prevent the Masters to send one 
of 
> theirs 
> > to the West in the last quarter.
> > And again, I think that Adyar has learned its lesson on cant 
about 
> Masters.
> > So the result is that most theosophists did not recognize around 
> 1975 the 
> > new torchbearer of truth.
> > 
> > That many false messiahs come does not mean that not also a true 
> messiah 
> > comes, don't?
> > 
> > ------------------------------ 
> > Nigel:
> > 
> > From my perspective, we need be particularly careful to clearly
> > distinguish between the ongoing work and manifestations of the
> > masters of the wisdom, which they themselves verify, and setting 
any
> > actual predictive dates of their putative physical appearance in
> > human form.
> > 
> > ------------------------------ 
> > Frank:
> > 
> > Ongoing work... a good idea.
> > Most leading theosophist in Middle Europe I know of believe that 
> all 
> > theosophical work was already done by HPB and we may rest now 
(they 
> will 
> > rest for themselves, they will not HPB's rest).
> > 
> > I never heard of any pukka theosophist giving predictive dates 
> about 
> > masters.
> > What do you mean by appearance in human form?
> > 
> > Do they usually appear in animal form?
> > 
> > 
> > Also from my perspective, we need be particularly careful not to 
put
> > words into the mouth of Madame Blavatsky, which she didn't 
actually
> > write.
> > She did not write that there would be appearances, only that there
> > may be, either before, or not before a particular date, and even 
> then
> > subject to particular criteria.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Nigel wrote:
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Dear Frank
> > >
> > > Thank you again for your response.
> > >
> > > You write, "I don't get your point.
> > > What makes you so sure to know what HPB has planed
> > > in 1875?"
> > >
> > > Actually I have not been shown conclusive evidence
> > > that she planned anything at all in terms of
> > > preparing, ".the world for the coming of a great
> > > spiritual teacher expected in the last quarter of
> > > the 20th century in 1975" for reasons already stated.
> > >
> > > She carried out the work intended for her and suggested
> > > the above may occur subject to criteria already stated.
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Frank:
> > > Dear Nigel,
> > > me thought, you were quiet sure that HPB had no plans in 1875 
for
> > future
> > > work of successive messengers.
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Nigel wrote:
> > > You write, "when HPB wrote about him in 1888, he was
> > > already there."
> > >
> > > Can you please supply credible evidence to support
> > > this contention?
> > >
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Frank:
> > > Possibly. That depends on some conditions.
> > > I need to now, what you would accept as evidence.
> > > Also I need to know whether you accept the occult office of a
> > messenger to
> > > the Masters.
> > > We are talking here about esoteric matters and thinks are 
> difficult.
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Nigel wrote:
> > >
> > > You write, "HPB used the term "send", which is a
> > > flexible term and a blind, too. She says here that
> > > the karmic ring or connection between her and her
> > > successor is done and it depends of the karma of
> > > the theosophists and TS, whether the new teacher
> > > is "send" or made known."
> > >
> > > Can you also please supply credible evidence to support
> > > these contentions?
> > >
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Frank:
> > > Perhaps Purucker's hints about the insignia majestatis will be 
of
> > help:
> > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/teachers/te-gdp7.htm
> > >
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Nigel wrote:
> > > You write, "That he intermixes the occult status
> > > and titles of the persons mentioned is also clear.
> > > That people have wrong pictures in mind is not the
> > > fault of HPB. Therefore she was careful with her
> > > statements, so much, that she is not understood,
> > > except perhaps by those, who it may concern."
> > >
> > > Once again can you kindly provide credible evidence
> > > for this?
> > >
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Frank:
> > > It's self-evident. HPB's discussion of the work of a messenger 
of
> > 1897 and
> > > the work of the 1975 messenger are logically two different 
things.
> > > I don't know what is so difficult to understand.
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Nigel wrote:
> > > Frank with respect, you write with quite adamant
> > > authority. You often claim that some of us have
> > > wrong perspectives whilst providing little hard
> > > evidence of a credible nature to me to support
> > > your contentions. I hope you might be able to do
> > > so on this occasion.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Frank:
> > > Really!!??
> > > Perhaps I need to brush up my English.
> > > I just share with all open-minded students the results of my 
> study.
> > > These results are personal opinion.
> > > You or Morten or others have other opinions.
> > > If I think, they are wrong, I speak out.
> > > You have given me also no hard evidence that HPB did not work 
for
> > her
> > > succeccors and the 1975 messenger.
> > > And I wonder which evidence I could give you, while the living 
and
> > the work
> > > of our great ones speaks for themselves.
> > > Should I send you a certificate, singed by a President of a TS, 
in
> > which is
> > > stated: "Yes, Frank is right, HPB did prepatory work for the 
1975
> > messenger.
> > > And yes, Frank is also right, that the 1897 messenger is not
> > identical with
> > > the 1975 messenger?"
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
>                          
> 
>        
> ---------------------------------
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