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Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

Jun 02, 2008 08:14 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen


Perhaps. Perhaps not. I think it depends on how you view it all.
I find J. Krishnamurti just as damaging as CWL to the theosophical cause and to TS - if not more than CWL.

M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 12:59 PM
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter


  Who are we to judge Krishnamurti.  He has helped far more souls with insight into their lower self, than ever Besant and Leadbeater did.
   
  Cass

  --- On Mon, 6/2/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Monday, June 2, 2008, 12:49 AM

  My views are:

  I can only disagree with such a kind of teaching. That is all.
  I am perfectly aware of the Non-dual teachings through my own experiences.

  Why do you and others keep up this farce and emotionally oriented 
  Kirshnamurti cult?
  Why is the following not enough to show everyone at the TS, where the J. 
  Krishnamurti teachings belong?

  The total denial and rejection

  Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932
  I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to 
  spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake 
  propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself 
  the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is 
  dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge 
  meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What 
  service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can 
  only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to 
  make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. 
  Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest....

  In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
  " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the 
  Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing 
  in common with what I say"
  http://books. google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=RA2- PA379&lpg= RA2-PA379& dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&source= web&ots=StjngNWK 0k&sig=yBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1

  NOTHING?
  As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the 
  Christian, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing 
  in common with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does 
  the T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti?

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: <Augoeides-222@ comcast.net>
  To: <theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com>
  Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:42 PM
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  Morten,
  The Pre- Christian Mandaeans ended all their works with "And Life is 
  Victorious!" . Even back then they knew what you are unwilling to accept from 
  the lips of Krishnamurti. My suggestion is read the Abidharma which fills 
  the words of Krishnamurti that you qoute and which H. P. B. herself also 
  taught as she was taught. Again Krishnamurti speaks in the language of the 
  Non-dual until Theosphists bring themselves to exposure to the Non-Dual 
  School they will always be left to the conditioned mind and it's prejudices. 
  Just my personal perception of the situational source and causes.

  Regards,
  John

  ------------ -- Original message ------------ -- 
  From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  Dear Cass and all readers

  My views are:

  Nobody said that he was only adressing Annie Besant in his speech.
  And the fact that he allowed to be called Maitreya - World Teacher for at 
  least 4 years if not for 18 years without really counter-acting it - aught 
  to tell you something.

  Even Geoffrey Hodson said that J. Krishnamurti was promoted as Maitreya - 
  World Teacher at the Star Camp in Ommen - and that J. Krishnamurti was aware 
  of this.

  And what about the following?:

  J. Krishnamurti said:
  "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself 
  without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to 
  worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which 
  dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, 
  religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
  http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php

  I think it speak for it self.

  He never really denied not yet being realised as a Maitreya. Please, tell 
  me - Is there any place where he denies being the Maitreya World-Teacher?
  I wonder if Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater raised him like this because 
  they themselves never admitted errors?

  At least H. P. Blavatsky and others - myself included are ready to admit 
  errors when we can perceive them.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 PM
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  I am sure you must have a mental block on this issue.  You have made 
  clear what Besant/Leadbeater wanted, but in Krishnamurti' s own mouth we hear 
  that he never took on the robe of World Teacher operating through 
  Maitreya. 
   
  The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this:
  "As I said, YOU (BESANT)  have been preparing for eighteen years 
  for me. I do not care if you (BESANT) believe that I am the World-Teacher or 
  not. That is of very little importance. Since you (BESANT) belong to the 
  organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your 
  energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher --(NOT ME, YOU, 
  BESANT)  partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, 
  only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths 
  (BESANT'S HALF TRUTHS)

  You (BESANT)  have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many 
  difficulties there are in the way of your (BESANT'S)understan ding, how many 
  complications, how many trivial things. Your(BESANTS) prejudices, your 
  fears, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain, 
  are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do 
  not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to 
  understand what I am saying."  (I AM NOT MAITREYA/WORLD TEACHER).
   
  Can't you see this is BESANT'S dream for Krishnamurti and not his own.???
   
   
  Cass
   

  --- On Sun, 6/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen 
  <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Date: Sunday, June 1, 2008, 8:35 PM

  To all readers

  My views are:

  Allright Cass.
  Here we go...

  1.
  There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said:

  "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself 
  without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to 
  worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which 
  dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, 
  religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
  http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- 
  law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php

  2.
  J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings:

  The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tells 
  me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given by 
  H. P. Blavatsky.

  "What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the 
  guidance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress 
  held at Ommen, Holland, in 1925.

  That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth 
  anniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11, 
  the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the 
  almost immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to 
  which Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the 
  Congress was to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had 
  been burdened by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her 
  opening address, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references 
  to personages like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her 
  listeners:
  And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some of 
  the messages of the Lord Maitreya
  and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, 
  is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
  His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He will 
  choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord 
  Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention 
  seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship,
  Who were the "Arhats"?
  The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and 
  myself, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale,
  Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale,
  I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was one, 
  but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is very 
  dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He 
  had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by 
  his King.
  Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself as 
  the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am." .
  Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was 
  really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has 
  grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, 
  many thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, 
  since He has said it, it is done. . . "
  ( http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/theosophica% 20lmovement. htm )

  M. Sufilight comments:
  Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years 
  if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J. 
  Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of 
  protesting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales 
  leadership of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until 
  Radha Burnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from 
  the TS, which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never 
  talked about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to 
  bash their value and to promote himself!

  3.
  The total denial and rejection

  Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932
  I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to 
  spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake 
  propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself 
  the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is 
  dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge 
  meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What 
  service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can 
  only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to 
  make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. 
  Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest....

  In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
  " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the 
  Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing 
  in common with what I say"
  http://books. google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=RA2- PA379&lpg= 
  RA2-PA379& dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&source= 
  web&ots= StjngNWK 0k&sig=yBGu2frk W 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1

  NOTHING?
  As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the 
  Christian, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing 
  in common with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does 
  the T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti?

  4.
  Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti:

  We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the 
  early J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the 
  Star in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the 
  TS was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World 
  Teacher?

  The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this:
  "As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care 
  if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little 
  importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, 
  you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti 
  is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really 
  seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own 
  half-truths.

  You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties 
  there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many 
  trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches 
  new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I 
  cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I 
  do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."
  ....
  "So why have an organization? "
  ....
  " I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want 
  you to understand what I am saying."

  (From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta. 
  ws/TPH_TIPL. HTM)

  - - - - - - -

  All this, is more than enough to me.

  - - - - - - - - -

  5.
  Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views:
  "He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of 
  the Theosophical Society for
  Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to 
  read a Theosophical book in His life -
  could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard many 
  Theosophical lectures, none of
  them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth.""
  (" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 )

  6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict
  Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict:
  "Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der 
  Leeuw, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers 
  Maatschappij, 1930)
  http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya?
  Cass

  --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global- theosophy@ 
  stofanet. dk> wrote:

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global- theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM

  Agreed.
  So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what 
  kind of teaching is that?

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM
  Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya to 
  teach, e.g. Gandhi.
  Cass

  Morten Nymann Olesen <global- theosoph y@ stofanet. dk> wrote:

  Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He".

  My views are:

  J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great number 
  of other contemporaries.

  Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul 
  Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oom" 
  or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda 
  Saraswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra 
  David-Néel, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly 
  call themselves more civilized than others).

  Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish.
  He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  My views are:

  J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great number 
  of other contemporaries.

  Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul 
  Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oom" 
  or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda 
  Saraswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra 
  David-Néel, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly 
  call themselves more civilized than others).

  Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish.
  I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed out 
  that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or his 
  followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is 
  speaking without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, 
  Krishnamurti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, 
  but nevertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the 
  world, only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.

  Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or not 
  he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.

  Cass

  Morten Nymann Olesen <global- theosoph y@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
  My views are:

  So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a 
  World Teacher Maitreya?
  And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well?

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru, 
  not get a mason 33 degree.

  Cass

  Morten Nymann Olesen <global- theosoph y@ stofanet. dk> wrote:

  Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not 
  the wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other 
  Masters.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mkr777@gmail. com
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l
  Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM
  Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter

  In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says:

  "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of
  humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their
  weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and
  show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward
  observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you
  but you must put forth all your strength."
  ===xxx===

  MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonry?
  I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inner
  thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world see
  what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy.

  I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond to
  questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds.

  Ramadoss

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