Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
Nov 09, 2008 07:03 AM
by Anton Rozman
Dear Morten,
We were talking about concrete organizational forms in physical world
and problems related to their functioning. I am afraid that we are
now entering in the area where things we were talking about become
unclear and where related issues can be expressed and understood in
countless ways.
Thank you very much for your views and warmest regards,
Anton
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Anton
>
> About the "dangerous" issue:
> What you cannot change will die out. Just like ancient religions
from ages past.
> Some branches do not bear fruit, and will heva to be released by
other branches.
>
> Mahatma Letter 47:
> "So let us talk -- for sharp as your voice may be, your heart is
warm and you end by saying "Whether you decree that what seems to me
right be done or not" you are ever ours faithfully etc. Europe is a
large place but the world is bigger yet. The sun of Theosophy must
shine for all, not for a part. There is more of this movement than
you have yet had an inkling of, and the work of the T.S. is linked in
with similar work that is secretly going on in all parts of the
world. " (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-47.htm)
>
>
>
> Anton wrote:
> "And because members are not nucleuses of brotherhood yet"
>
> My answer:
> Do you know that?
> Think about what you actually are saying.
>
> Anton wrote:
> "Well, the experience with the Esoteric Section shows that it
didn't
> achieve its goal "
>
> My answer:
> Some attempt end up in failure. And some persons fall on the Path.
> It seems obvious, that Annie Besant tripped fell, although she also
did something good.
>
> Anton wrote:
> "Here I agree with Krishnamurti: You can not organize the
> Spiritual Path. It is a matter of each individual."
>
> My answer:
> But H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters did organise it, in part, and
with some success!
> Because the real organisation is the Himalyan Lodge or the Master
Lodge.
> Saying that the Masters are not esoterically organised and dis-
organised is rubbish as far as I am concerned. The Path is the Law of
Karma. The Law of Karma is organised esoterically.
>
> And no it is NOT as you say "a matter of each individual" alone.
> In one sense your are quite right. But in another, it is a clear
fact, that we can never walk alone.
> Never Anton. The world and the Oneness are there simultaniously. It
is a paradox.
>
> Should we abandon Masters teachings and follow J. Krishnamurti and
reject all thoughts about chelaship, and learn to use occult powers
by our own?
> Never. Never ever.
>
>
>
> M. Sufilight
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anton Rozman
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:41 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
>
>
> Dear Morten,
>
> >Why is that a dangerous model?<
>
> It is dangerous because it detours round the Society's
constitutional
> platform and its democratic process.
>
> >The main idea with the TS was and is hopefully, that each member
> will be strong enough to become a nucleus in herself or himself.<
>
> This is an ideal to strive for but not the reality of the
situation.
> And because members are not nucleuses of brotherhood yet they
should
> apply to constitutional frame which role is to instruct and force
> them to behave in a fraternal manner.
>
> >So creating a new TS running parallel with the present TS is not
bad
> at all if the present TS is not running properly.<
>
> Well, the experience with the Esoteric Section shows that it
didn't
> achieve its goal and that its members didn't become cohesive and
> fraternal force in the TS, quite the contrary. Every organization
> established by a spiritual authority for the spiritual progress
of
> its members sooner or later becomes by default autocratic and
> dogmatic. Here I agree with Krishnamurti: You can not organize
the
> Spiritual Path. It is a matter of each individual.
>
> >Each member is only a member voluntarily.
> Each group its own nucleus.
> One should know one on ones fruits.
> And importantly: One should recognize truth when it is proven.<
>
> Yes, exactly. Why create new TS which will possibly respect the
> original program, constitutional platform and objects in a
greater
> degree if this is possible already within the present TS as every
> lodge, national society and federation has all freedom to do
that.
> The work must be done from the ground not from the top. The top
can
> just encourage this with its own example. There are no shortcuts
to
> greater democracy and spirituality - every member has to do
her/his
> own homework.
>
> >This is the idea of TS and the beginning to Chela-ship.<
>
> Well, this is the big question. Is the TS a tool for Chela-ship?
On
> individual level it can and should be. But I think that it is
much
> more than that. It is a tool for greater harmony and peace in the
> world - if it will work as it was meant to work.
>
> Warmest regards,
> Anton
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Anton and friends
> >
> > My views are:
> >
> > Anton wrote:
> > "In that way she established, in my view, a very dangerous
model,
> > namely that any person who considers herself/himself or is
regarded
> > by others as a spiritual teacher can arbitrarily decide who is
> loyal
> > to the Cause and original program of the Society and act
> accordingly. "
> >
> >
> > M. Sufilight says:
> > Why is that a dangerous model?
> >
> > The main idea with the TS was and is hopefully, that each
member
> will be strong enough to become a nucleus in herself or himself.
So
> creating a new TS running parallel with the present TS is not bad
at
> all if the present TS is not running properly.
> >
> >
> > Each member are only a member volunterely.
> >
> > Each group its own nucleus.
> > One should know one on ones fruits.
> > And importantly: One should recognize truth when it is proven.
> >
> > "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own
inadequacy,
> or the
> > competence of another man or institution, he must first learn
> something
> > which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his
> perception
> > itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional
> > attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it
alone'.
> This
> > is 'Learning How To
> > Learn." (Idries Shah)
> >
> >
> > This is the idea of TS and the beginning to Chela-ship.
> >
> >
> > M. Sufilight
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Anton Rozman
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:05 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
> >
> >
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > I think that we, members of the TS, can do an enormous service
to
> the
> > humanity if we will be able to solve the Society's problems in
a
> > democratic and fraternal manner. This is the reason why efforts
> to
> > reform the Society are worthwhile.
> >
> > Morten, you touched, in my opinion, the crucial problem: HPB
> actually
> > said that she is loyal to HSO, not because he is President of
the
> > Society but because he is loyal to the Theosophical Cause and
> that
> > the degree of her sympathy with the Theosophical Society and
> Adyar
> > depends upon the degree of loyalty of that Society to the
Cause.
> > Should it break away or show disloyalty to that Cause, and the
> > original program of the Society, she would shake it off like
dust
> > from her feet.
> >
> > In that way she established, in my view, a very dangerous
model,
> > namely that any person who considers herself/himself or is
> regarded
> > by others as a spiritual teacher can arbitrarily decide who is
> loyal
> > to the Cause and original program of the Society and act
> accordingly.
> > And already superficial overview of the TS history shows that
> those
> > who considered themselves or were viewed by others as spiritual
> > leaders (who are in touch with Masters or know what Masters
> thought)
> > were at the same time source of disagreements and schisms in
the
> > Society. This model is still very alive and I think that the
> Society
> > will not be able to solve its problems if it will not be able
to
> > address this issue properly.
> >
> > And Richard's parody is wonderful indication of our ludicrous
> > situation.
> >
> > Warmest regards,
> > Anton
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Choke choke laugh laugh choke laugh!
> > >
> > > The scare part it is that it might be true!
> > >
> > > Chuck the Heretic
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 11/8/2008 6:55:16 P.M. Central Standard
> Time,
> > > semockr@ writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have heard that the Dalai Lama is dropping out of his
> position
> > as
> > > figurehead or spokesman for a free Tibet since none of his
> > > initiatives in this regard have had the slightest impact on
the
> > > communist govt that has Tibet in its deadly embrace.
> > >
> > > This implys that president elect Obama has approached him
with
> an
> > > offer to join his Administration of Change as secretary of
> Ancient
> > > Wisdom which is a new department that is being formed in the
> > > executive branch. DK & KH were originally approached for the
> > position
> > > but they would only agree to precipitate an email now and
then
> by
> > way
> > > of communication and this was not sufficient contact to
satisfy
> > the
> > > ex-hippies that Obama is seeding his cabinet with.
> > >
> > > For the first time in history then, the SD has a real chance
to
> > > replace the Bible and to have Theosophy occupy its rightful
> place
> > as
> > > Law of the Land in the USA. After this has taken place, the
> other
> > > countrys will fall in line and Theosophy will experience a
> > resurgence
> > > that will beggar description of any previous coup.
> > >
> > > --- In _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-
> > talk@yahoogroups.com) ,
> > > MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well said.
> > > >
> > > > "Proof of the pudding is in the eating."
> > > >
> > > > Looking at the membership trend over the last 20 years
world-
> > wide
> > > outside of
> > > > India, there is a continuing steep decline. It continues
> every
> > > minute.
> > > >
> > > > The structure of TS was deliberately setup by the wise ones
> with
> > > total
> > > > autonomy at lodge and section levels. So the buck stops at
> the
> > > sections.
> > > >
> > > > To address any problem, first correct problem has to be
> > identified.
> > > Then
> > > > solutions can be found.
> > > >
> > > > Today's critical problem of TS is steep decline in
membership
> in
> > all
> > > > sections outside India. This is obvious. None of
> the "leaders"
> > > even wants
> > > > to talk about it, because much of the decline took place in
> > their
> > > watch and
> > > > they have no explanation.
> > > >
> > > > Meddling with International Rules is not going to do
anything
> to
> > > address the
> > > > membership growth, because TS is not a spiritual
organization
> > held
> > > together
> > > > by blind followers with blind faith and blind beliefs.
> > > >
> > > > It is all about a handful of GC members trying to do away
> with
> > > members'
> > > > rights and seize power. That would give access to all the
> assets
> > > which they
> > > > can spend as they want. In addition, they can put their
> Puppet
> > as
> > > the
> > > > President with wings clipped. Losers will be members, TS
and
> > > theosophy.
> > > >
> > > > And it would destroy TS in our life time, as members leave.
> > > >
> > > > That is where we are today.
> > > >
> > > > MKR
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 6:05 AM, Duane Carpenter
> > > <monad_monad_monad_mon
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > All membership comes from inspiration. All inspiration
> comes
> > from
> > > > > enlightened leadership. It often takes great luminaries
> like
> > HPB
> > > to light a
> > > > > fire in those around them. If the structure of the
> Theosophical
> > > > > Society keeps out purposely or by default those of
advanced
> > > spiritual
> > > > > development they will never attract new members. If new
and
> > > enlightened
> > > > > leadership do not come into an organization or
institution
> to
> > > give it
> > > > > continue renewal and spiritual life that institution will
> die
> > a
> > > slow
> > > > > agonizing death from bureaucratic minutiae and
> organizational
> > > suffocation.
> > > > > This is why some advocate revolution. If you cannot
reform
> and
> > > change the
> > > > > old structures you either create new ones in there place
or
> > get
> > > out of the
> > > > > way and let those more responsive to the new Aquarian
> impulses
> > do
> > > there
> > > > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > DC
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ ____ ____
> > > > > From: MKR <mkr777@>
> > > > > To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-
> > talk@yahoogroups.com)
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 6:46:43 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
> > > > >
> > > > > From an ordinary intelligent person's view, as I have
> > mentioned
> > > several
> > > > > time
> > > > > previously, the most urgent real issue facing the TS is
NOT
> > > changing the
> > > > > rules.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is the rapid and continuing decline in the number of
> > members
> > > in all the
> > > > > sections outside India.
> > > > >
> > > > > TS was setup as fully autonomous at lodge and section
> levels.
> > So
> > > the
> > > > > problem
> > > > > is the problem of section leaders and hard work of the
> members
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > section. Any amount of meddling with the rules is going
to
> do
> > > nothing to
> > > > > address the problem. The only thing that will do to by
> > tweaking
> > > and
> > > > > meddling
> > > > > with the rules is for the GC members to disenfranchise
the
> > > members and
> > > > > seize
> > > > > the control of the presidency and thus effectively making
> the
> > > president a
> > > > > puppet in the hands of a few GC members.
> > > > >
> > > > > Once this happens, in our life time we will see the end
of
> TS
> > > because we
> > > > > are
> > > > > not like other spiritual organizations whose basis is
blind
> > faith
> > > and blind
> > > > > beliefs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Has anyone seen any GC member ever mention the membership
> > decline
> > > issue? It
> > > > > is a very sorry state of affairs.
> > > > >
> > > > > mkr
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Anton Rozman
> <anton_rozman@ant>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear friends,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is the main interest of the Theosophical Society
as
> an
> > > > > > international institution or common interest of all
> members
> > of
> > > the
> > > > > > Theosophical Society?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In first place, to neutralize all partial interests of
> > > individual
> > > > > > members or groups of members which identify themselves
> with
> > > those of
> > > > > > the Theosophical Society and in that way to be able to
> > realize
> > > its
> > > > > > objects on the basis of its constitutional platform. In
> > present
> > > > > > situation common interest is wholly absent and crippled.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The scissors and linen to overcome it are wholly in the
> > hands
> > > of the
> > > > > > elected President. She, and only she, has received a
> mandate
> > to
> > > unify
> > > > > > the Society under a common interest. She has the power
> and
> > > authority
> > > > > > to do that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is obvious that routine proceedings aren't enough to
> > solve
> > > actual
> > > > > > problem. According to Rules and Regulations the
President
> has
> > > > > > authority to: ââ,¬Â¦ a special meeting may be called
at
> any
> > time by
> > > the
> > > > > > President ââ,¬Â¦ the President at his discretion may
> call such
> > > members to
> > > > > > a meeting for the purpose of study and discussion of
any
> > matters
> > > > > > concerning the Society that he considers appropriate to
> lay
> > > before
> > > > > > them. The meeting may then forward to the President its
> > report
> > > on
> > > > > > such matters and may make recommendations thereon. Such
> > meetings
> > > > > > shall be of a consultative nature without
administrative
> or
> > > > > > legislative authority, or may be of a legislative
nature
> > upon
> > > the
> > > > > > decision of the General Council taken at least one year
> in
> > > advance.
> > > > > > In the event the President does not himself attend such
a
> > > meeting he
> > > > > > may appoint the Vice-President or some other member of
> the
> > > General
> > > > > > Council to preside in his stead.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the basis of these Regulations and with the use of
> > internet
> > > > > > technology an extended discussion panel can be formed
to
> > address
> > > > > > important critical issues. With making such discussion
> > panel
> > > public
> > > > > > the Theosophical Society would show to its members and
> > public in
> > > > > > general that it is able to overcome divisions and find
a
> > common
> > > > > > interest according to the philosophy the Society is
> > promoting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is, in my opinion, the only way out from the death
> > alley
> > > we are
> > > > > > catched in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Warmest regards,
> > > > > > Anton
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ ---- ---- -
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ -------- -------- -----
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions,
recipes
> and
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> > >
>
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> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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