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Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Jan 11, 2009 05:02 PM
by nhcareyta


Dear Cass

If I may add to your discussion, your point concerning 
a teacher rather than Messiah is, from my perspective, 
well made and significant.

Moreover, Madame Blavatsky's words "...numerous and 
united body of people..." and "..an organisation awaiting 
his arrival..." are also significant.

As I have mentioned previously, in 1973 the Dalai Lama 
first visited the West in Europe. 
He found "...numerous and united body of people..." 
and an organisational structure ready for his teachings. 
Many of these teachings are theosophical and from Madame 
Blavatsky's masters' tradition. 
She was entrusted to bring some of these same teachings to 
the West a century earlier.
The Dalai Lama has certainly been a torchbearer for the light 
of compassion and non-violence in the world. 
And contrary to most religions, he also teaches we have to 
discover the nature of our self, by ourselves, through 
studying our mind and not through blindly following dogma, 
despite his tradition's many dogmas.

Kind regards
Nigel

   




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> No I haven't - Blavatsky stated "the next impulse will find a 
numerous and united body
> of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will 
find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for 
him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization 
awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7. 
Italics added.
> 
> She stated a "new torch-bearer of Truth" which isn't the same thing 
as a 'new messiah' - I see no problem in translating torch bearer 
into teacher?
> 
> Cass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2009 8:41:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> 
> No.
> You wrote:
> "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a 
Teacher would come"
> 
> I take it that you have changed your mind or wanted to tell me 
something else.
> 
> - - -
> 
> And you did not answer my questions.
> And I ask myself why.
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Cass Silva 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> As I have said he was a lesser teacher - as we have mini cycles we 
also have mini teachers - if you get my point
> Cass
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 8:55:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> Dear friends and Cass
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Cass wrote:
> "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a 
Teacher would come"
> 
> My answer:
> I see no reason to believe this. A Trre is known on its fruits.
> 
> ". . .during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is 
made by those 'Masters' . . . to help on the spiritual progress of 
Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each 
century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of 
spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place. 
Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents, 
and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has 
been given out . . . . .If the present attempt, in the form of our 
Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it 
will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when 
the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general 
condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and 
purified by the spread of its teachings . . . . but besides a large 
and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will 
find a numerous and united body
> of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will 
find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for 
him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization 
awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7. 
Italics added.
> 
> My answer:
> 
> 1.
> I did not see an Organisation awaiting his (J. Krishnamurti' s) 
arrival. He was made a Messiah by the mis-conduct C. W. Leadbeater to 
promote his and Annie Besants fantasies about a Messiah in the flesh 
as something theosophical.
> 
> 2.
> He (J. Krishnamurti' s) if true, came 50 years earlier than 
predicted by H. P. Blavatsky. Do any of youreally HONESTLY within 
your minds find it to be possible that H. P. Blavatsky and her 
Masters was so bad in calculating when a new out-pouring would come?
> 
> If you compare J. Krishnamurti with other contemporary spiritual 
teacher and later teacher I find him to be a gnat in front of an 
elephant when compared with for instance persons like Idries Shah's 
teachings, Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, and even the persons behind 
the Disclosure Project on Ufology.
> 
> 3.
> Do you honstely find his (J. Krishnamurti' s) messages to be NEW?
> 
> 4.
> The body was not "united". It exploded thanks to C. W. Leadbeater 
and Annie Bests misconducts. How on earth can people find themselves 
believing, that the World Teacher of the Age was discovered 
SINGLEHANDEDLY by a man who just 3 years earlier was thrown out of 
the TS because of Sexual misconduct, something even admitted by 
himself? And a "body" which litterally en C. W. Leadbeater was 
admitted entrance to the Society again, forcing a great number of 
honest theosophists to resign?
> Why should such an activity be the hallmark of theosophical TRUTH 
and COMPASSION?
> I call it a disgrace!
> 
> 5.
> Why do you not find H. P. Blavatsky's masters being more able to 
predict the future than Annie Besant's ?
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Cass Silva 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> It was Leadbeater who pronounced Krishnamurti as being the new 
World Teacher - Besant went along with it even though she should have 
known better - Messiah's are not found on beaches - I believe 
Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would 
come - Leadbeater and Besant presumed the teacher would be a World 
Teacher - a christ acting through maitreya - the whole episode 
confounds me as Besant and Leadbeater must have been aware that such 
a World Teacher would not have required any education from those 
lesser evolved.
> I believe Krishnamurti when he reached adulthood recognised the 
bullshit - that he was not the second christ but could offer the 
world a new teaching on the self, hence his reasoning to abandon 
everything that supported the second christ claim.
> 
> Cass
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 3:13:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> Yes. - Let me rephrase it:
> And her activities when talking about J. Krishnamurti?
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Cass Silva 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> Morten - you are wrong Besant did not carnalize Jesus
> Cass
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 3:58:08 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> Dear Pedro and friends
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Pedro asked:
> "Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given 
to 
> those interested to attend?"
> 
> My answer and questions:
> 
> Why especially seek to burn them all like revolutionaries? Why not 
just simply avoid selling them?
> Let each person have their free choice in accordance with the Law 
of Karma. And let us tell people that we do NOT promote and sell 
these books, and that we have our reasons for not doing so. They are -
 perhaps and only perhaps - available at our libraries alongside the 
books by the Spiritists, the Christian dogmatics and other misleading 
teachings.
> 
> Can you with your compassionate heart and conscience say to any 
beginner seeker who visits a TS Bookshop say: 
> "Try this book. It is very good. It was written by one of the best 
theosophical authors of the past 150 years, and he was indeed a good 
and wise man? Honestly Pedro, if you agree to this I will have to ask 
you: What planet do you come from?
> 
> Pedro asked:
> "As a matter of fact, why stop at 
> Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's, 
> Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?"
> 
> My answer and question:
> Each authors books and literary output have to valued in the face 
of their contents and whether the individual author stands as a 
disgrace to the theosophical teachings. H. P. Blavatsky clearly spake 
out against selling all kind of books. And TS Adyar are not selling 
all kind of books. 
> 
> Today we theosophists are faced with numerous websites bashing the 
theosophical teachings because of C. W. Leadbeaters misconduct and 
the promotion of a Messiah only 3 years after he were thrown out of 
the Society.
> You tell them all and tell us, that we and they ALL are wrong in 
their and our views on C. W. Leadbeater dammaging behaviour to the TS 
teachings as they were given by H. P. Blavatsky and Master.
> 
> I had to start at one place, and choose CWL. And yes, maybe other 
authors books aught to be prevented from being sold so not to damage 
the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST. What do each of you think the 
Master would say if you just would go on and sell all and everything. 
> 
> Remember H. P. Blavatsky for instance recommended reading Hargrave 
Jennings book about The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries 
(1870). And she did well doing it. Can we say the same about C. W. 
Leadbeaters books? No certainly not!
> 
> These are some the differences in view Pedro.
> I will avoid to promote something that damages the WISDOM TEACHINGS 
of ALL AGES PAST.
> Whereas I find that you appearntly would allow this damage to take 
full effect in a Christian Church or something almost similar to it?
> 
> - - -
> Now, Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater and Alice A. Bailey promotes 
the idea of a carnalized saviour in the flesh. They do it by the use 
of pseudo-Christian vocabulary, I will admit that. But they DO it.
> 
> H. P. Blavatsky spoke about against this idea of emotionalism.
> And when people will teach theosophy they aught to consider the 
following views by H. P. Blavatsky.
> 
> H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:
> 
> In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
> the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a 
doctrine
> diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu 
Esotericism
> and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
> between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
> yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
> and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
> prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
> that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]
> 
> ...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
> and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
> Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
> them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
> Wisdom. . . . [374]
> 
> . . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
> Flesh. . . .[390]
> 
> - - -
> 
> C.W. XII, p. 501-
> 
> (From the "Book of Discipline" in the schools of "Dzyan.") 
> 
> "1. To the earnest Disciple his Teacher takes the place of Father 
and Mother. For, whereas they gave him his body and its faculties, 
its life and casual form, the Teacher shows him how to develop the 
inner faculties for the acquisition of the Eternal Wisdom. 
> 
> "2. To the Disciple each Fellow-Disciple becomes a Brother and 
Sister, a portion of himself, for his interests and aspirations are 
theirs, his welfare interwoven with theirs, his progress helped or 
hindered by their intelligence, morality, and behavior through the 
intimacy brought about by their co-discipleship. 
> 
> "3. A co-disciple or associate cannot backslide or fall out of the 
line without affecting those who stand firm through the sympathetic 
tie between themselves and the psychical currents between them and 
their Teacher. 
> 
> "4. Woe to the deserter, woe also to all who help to bring his soul 
to the point where desertion first presents itself before his mind's 
eye, as the lesser of two evils. Gold in the crucible is he who 
stands the melting heat of trial, and lets only the dross be burnt 
out of his heart; accursed by Karmic action will find himself he who 
throws dross into the melting-pot of discipleship for the debasement 
of his fellow-pupil. As the members to the body, so are the disciples 
to each other, and to the Head and Heart which teach and nourish them 
with the life-stream of Truth. 
> 
> "5. As the limbs defend the head and heart of the body they belong 
to, so have the disciples to defend the head and the heart of the 
body they belong to (in this case Theosophy) from injury." 
> 
> (From the Letter of a Master.)
> 
> " ... and if the limbs have to defend the head and heart of their 
body, then why not so, also, the Disciples their Teachers as 
representing the SCIENCE of Theosophy which contains and 
> 
> ----------
> * "So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love 
to men as though they were thy brother-pupils, disciples of one 
Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother." (Vide Fragment III, in Voice 
of the Silence, p. 49.)
> ----------
> 
> Page 503
> 
> includes the 'head' of their privilege, the 'heart' of their 
spiritual growth? Saith the Scripture: - 
> 
> "He who wipeth not away the filth with which the parent's body may 
have been defiled by an enemy, neither loves the parent nor honours 
himself. He who defendeth not the persecuted and the helpless, who 
giveth not of his food to the starving nor draweth water from his 
well for the thirsty, hath been born too soon in human shape. "
> 
> http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_ 
052.htm
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Pedro Oliveira 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:01 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@ .> wrote:
> 
> > So therefore I would keep recommending: Stop selling books by C. 
> W. Leadbeater and his LLC Church.
> 
> Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to 
> those interested to attend? As a matter of fact, why stop at 
> Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's, 
> Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?
> 
> In view of the statemts included in it, such as the ones below, 
> should not "The Secret Doctrine" be also considered as a book whose 
> sale may not be allowed to go on?
> 
> "The Aryan views of the symbolism were those of the whole Pagan 
> world; the Semite interpretations emanated from, and were pre-
> eminently those of a small tribe, thus marking its national 
features 
> and the idiosyncratic defects that characterize many of the Jews to 
> this day - gross realism, selfishness, and sensuality. They had 
made 
> a bargain, through their father Jacob, with their tribal deity, 
self-
> exalted above all others, and a covenant that his "seed shall be as 
> the dust of the earth"; and that deity could have no better image 
> henceforth than that of the symbol of generation, and, as 
> representation, a number and numbers." (SD, vol. II, p. 470)
> 
> "But Phallic worship has developed only with the gradual loss of 
the 
> keys to the inner meaning of religious symbols; and there was a day 
> when the Israelites had beliefs as pure as the Aryans have. But now 
> Judaism, built solely on Phallic worship, has become one of the 
> latest creeds in Asia, and theologically a religion of hate and 
> malice toward everyone and everything outside themselves. Philo 
> Judæus shows what was the genuine Hebrew faith. The sacred 
Writings, 
> he says, prescribe what we ought to do . . . commanding us to hate 
> the heathen and their laws and institutions. They did hate Baal or 
> Bacchus worship publicly, but left its worst features to be 
followed 
> secretly; and it is with the Talmudic Jews that the grand symbols 
of 
> nature were the most profaned. With them, as now shown by the 
> discovery of the key to the correct Bible reading - Geometry, the 
> fifth divine Science ("fifth" - because it is the fifth key in the 
> series of the Seven Keys to the Universal esoteric language and 
> symbology) was desecrated, and by them applied to conceal the most 
> terrestrial and grossly sexual mysteries, wherein both Deity and 
> religion were degraded." (SD, vol. II, p. 471)
> 
> On the other hand, an easier solution would be to allow people the 
> freedom to choose what they want to read and study. Alas, this has 
> always been the most difficult path to follow, particularly for 
those 
> bred and born with the nourishment of the received truth.
> 
> Pedro
> 
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