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Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Jan 12, 2009 09:54 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen


And which of them gace "irrefutable proof of Gupta-Vidya"?

Dalai Lama, J. Krushnamurti, or C. W. Leadbeater?


M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nhcareyta 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:02 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?


  Dear Cass

  If I may add to your discussion, your point concerning 
  a teacher rather than Messiah is, from my perspective, 
  well made and significant.

  Moreover, Madame Blavatsky's words "...numerous and 
  united body of people..." and "..an organisation awaiting 
  his arrival..." are also significant.

  As I have mentioned previously, in 1973 the Dalai Lama 
  first visited the West in Europe. 
  He found "...numerous and united body of people..." 
  and an organisational structure ready for his teachings. 
  Many of these teachings are theosophical and from Madame 
  Blavatsky's masters' tradition. 
  She was entrusted to bring some of these same teachings to 
  the West a century earlier.
  The Dalai Lama has certainly been a torchbearer for the light 
  of compassion and non-violence in the world. 
  And contrary to most religions, he also teaches we have to 
  discover the nature of our self, by ourselves, through 
  studying our mind and not through blindly following dogma, 
  despite his tradition's many dogmas.

  Kind regards
  Nigel

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
  >
  > No I haven't - Blavatsky stated "the next impulse will find a 
  numerous and united body
  > of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will 
  find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for 
  him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization 
  awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7. 
  Italics added.
  > 
  > She stated a "new torch-bearer of Truth" which isn't the same thing 
  as a 'new messiah' - I see no problem in translating torch bearer 
  into teacher?
  > 
  > Cass
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ________________________________
  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@...>
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2009 8:41:05 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > 
  > No.
  > You wrote:
  > "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a 
  Teacher would come"
  > 
  > I take it that you have changed your mind or wanted to tell me 
  something else.
  > 
  > - - -
  > 
  > And you did not answer my questions.
  > And I ask myself why.
  > 
  > M. Sufilight
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Cass Silva 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:29 AM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > As I have said he was a lesser teacher - as we have mini cycles we 
  also have mini teachers - if you get my point
  > Cass
  > 
  > ____________ _________ _________ __
  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  > Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 8:55:54 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > Dear friends and Cass
  > 
  > My views are:
  > 
  > Cass wrote:
  > "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a 
  Teacher would come"
  > 
  > My answer:
  > I see no reason to believe this. A Trre is known on its fruits.
  > 
  > ". . .during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is 
  made by those 'Masters' . . . to help on the spiritual progress of 
  Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each 
  century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of 
  spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place. 
  Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents, 
  and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has 
  been given out . . . . .If the present attempt, in the form of our 
  Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it 
  will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when 
  the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general 
  condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and 
  purified by the spread of its teachings . . . . but besides a large 
  and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will 
  find a numerous and united body
  > of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will 
  find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for 
  him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization 
  awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7. 
  Italics added.
  > 
  > My answer:
  > 
  > 1.
  > I did not see an Organisation awaiting his (J. Krishnamurti' s) 
  arrival. He was made a Messiah by the mis-conduct C. W. Leadbeater to 
  promote his and Annie Besants fantasies about a Messiah in the flesh 
  as something theosophical.
  > 
  > 2.
  > He (J. Krishnamurti' s) if true, came 50 years earlier than 
  predicted by H. P. Blavatsky. Do any of youreally HONESTLY within 
  your minds find it to be possible that H. P. Blavatsky and her 
  Masters was so bad in calculating when a new out-pouring would come?
  > 
  > If you compare J. Krishnamurti with other contemporary spiritual 
  teacher and later teacher I find him to be a gnat in front of an 
  elephant when compared with for instance persons like Idries Shah's 
  teachings, Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, and even the persons behind 
  the Disclosure Project on Ufology.
  > 
  > 3.
  > Do you honstely find his (J. Krishnamurti' s) messages to be NEW?
  > 
  > 4.
  > The body was not "united". It exploded thanks to C. W. Leadbeater 
  and Annie Bests misconducts. How on earth can people find themselves 
  believing, that the World Teacher of the Age was discovered 
  SINGLEHANDEDLY by a man who just 3 years earlier was thrown out of 
  the TS because of Sexual misconduct, something even admitted by 
  himself? And a "body" which litterally en C. W. Leadbeater was 
  admitted entrance to the Society again, forcing a great number of 
  honest theosophists to resign?
  > Why should such an activity be the hallmark of theosophical TRUTH 
  and COMPASSION?
  > I call it a disgrace!
  > 
  > 5.
  > Why do you not find H. P. Blavatsky's masters being more able to 
  predict the future than Annie Besant's ?
  > 
  > M. Sufilight
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Cass Silva 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:48 AM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > It was Leadbeater who pronounced Krishnamurti as being the new 
  World Teacher - Besant went along with it even though she should have 
  known better - Messiah's are not found on beaches - I believe 
  Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would 
  come - Leadbeater and Besant presumed the teacher would be a World 
  Teacher - a christ acting through maitreya - the whole episode 
  confounds me as Besant and Leadbeater must have been aware that such 
  a World Teacher would not have required any education from those 
  lesser evolved.
  > I believe Krishnamurti when he reached adulthood recognised the 
  bullshit - that he was not the second christ but could offer the 
  world a new teaching on the self, hence his reasoning to abandon 
  everything that supported the second christ claim.
  > 
  > Cass
  > 
  > ____________ _________ _________ __
  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  > Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 3:13:49 AM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > Yes. - Let me rephrase it:
  > And her activities when talking about J. Krishnamurti?
  > 
  > M. Sufilight
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Cass Silva 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:33 PM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > Morten - you are wrong Besant did not carnalize Jesus
  > Cass
  > 
  > ____________ _________ _________ __
  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  > Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 3:58:08 AM
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > Dear Pedro and friends
  > 
  > My views are:
  > 
  > Pedro asked:
  > "Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given 
  to 
  > those interested to attend?"
  > 
  > My answer and questions:
  > 
  > Why especially seek to burn them all like revolutionaries? Why not 
  just simply avoid selling them?
  > Let each person have their free choice in accordance with the Law 
  of Karma. And let us tell people that we do NOT promote and sell 
  these books, and that we have our reasons for not doing so. They are -
  perhaps and only perhaps - available at our libraries alongside the 
  books by the Spiritists, the Christian dogmatics and other misleading 
  teachings.
  > 
  > Can you with your compassionate heart and conscience say to any 
  beginner seeker who visits a TS Bookshop say: 
  > "Try this book. It is very good. It was written by one of the best 
  theosophical authors of the past 150 years, and he was indeed a good 
  and wise man? Honestly Pedro, if you agree to this I will have to ask 
  you: What planet do you come from?
  > 
  > Pedro asked:
  > "As a matter of fact, why stop at 
  > Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's, 
  > Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?"
  > 
  > My answer and question:
  > Each authors books and literary output have to valued in the face 
  of their contents and whether the individual author stands as a 
  disgrace to the theosophical teachings. H. P. Blavatsky clearly spake 
  out against selling all kind of books. And TS Adyar are not selling 
  all kind of books. 
  > 
  > Today we theosophists are faced with numerous websites bashing the 
  theosophical teachings because of C. W. Leadbeaters misconduct and 
  the promotion of a Messiah only 3 years after he were thrown out of 
  the Society.
  > You tell them all and tell us, that we and they ALL are wrong in 
  their and our views on C. W. Leadbeater dammaging behaviour to the TS 
  teachings as they were given by H. P. Blavatsky and Master.
  > 
  > I had to start at one place, and choose CWL. And yes, maybe other 
  authors books aught to be prevented from being sold so not to damage 
  the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST. What do each of you think the 
  Master would say if you just would go on and sell all and everything. 
  > 
  > Remember H. P. Blavatsky for instance recommended reading Hargrave 
  Jennings book about The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries 
  (1870). And she did well doing it. Can we say the same about C. W. 
  Leadbeaters books? No certainly not!
  > 
  > These are some the differences in view Pedro.
  > I will avoid to promote something that damages the WISDOM TEACHINGS 
  of ALL AGES PAST.
  > Whereas I find that you appearntly would allow this damage to take 
  full effect in a Christian Church or something almost similar to it?
  > 
  > - - -
  > Now, Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater and Alice A. Bailey promotes 
  the idea of a carnalized saviour in the flesh. They do it by the use 
  of pseudo-Christian vocabulary, I will admit that. But they DO it.
  > 
  > H. P. Blavatsky spoke about against this idea of emotionalism.
  > And when people will teach theosophy they aught to consider the 
  following views by H. P. Blavatsky.
  > 
  > H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:
  > 
  > In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
  > the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a 
  doctrine
  > diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu 
  Esotericism
  > and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
  > between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
  > yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
  > and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
  > prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
  > that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]
  > 
  > ...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
  > and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
  > Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
  > them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
  > Wisdom. . . . [374]
  > 
  > . . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
  > Flesh. . . .[390]
  > 
  > - - -
  > 
  > C.W. XII, p. 501-
  > 
  > (From the "Book of Discipline" in the schools of "Dzyan.") 
  > 
  > "1. To the earnest Disciple his Teacher takes the place of Father 
  and Mother. For, whereas they gave him his body and its faculties, 
  its life and casual form, the Teacher shows him how to develop the 
  inner faculties for the acquisition of the Eternal Wisdom. 
  > 
  > "2. To the Disciple each Fellow-Disciple becomes a Brother and 
  Sister, a portion of himself, for his interests and aspirations are 
  theirs, his welfare interwoven with theirs, his progress helped or 
  hindered by their intelligence, morality, and behavior through the 
  intimacy brought about by their co-discipleship. 
  > 
  > "3. A co-disciple or associate cannot backslide or fall out of the 
  line without affecting those who stand firm through the sympathetic 
  tie between themselves and the psychical currents between them and 
  their Teacher. 
  > 
  > "4. Woe to the deserter, woe also to all who help to bring his soul 
  to the point where desertion first presents itself before his mind's 
  eye, as the lesser of two evils. Gold in the crucible is he who 
  stands the melting heat of trial, and lets only the dross be burnt 
  out of his heart; accursed by Karmic action will find himself he who 
  throws dross into the melting-pot of discipleship for the debasement 
  of his fellow-pupil. As the members to the body, so are the disciples 
  to each other, and to the Head and Heart which teach and nourish them 
  with the life-stream of Truth. 
  > 
  > "5. As the limbs defend the head and heart of the body they belong 
  to, so have the disciples to defend the head and the heart of the 
  body they belong to (in this case Theosophy) from injury." 
  > 
  > (From the Letter of a Master.)
  > 
  > " ... and if the limbs have to defend the head and heart of their 
  body, then why not so, also, the Disciples their Teachers as 
  representing the SCIENCE of Theosophy which contains and 
  > 
  > ----------
  > * "So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love 
  to men as though they were thy brother-pupils, disciples of one 
  Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother." (Vide Fragment III, in Voice 
  of the Silence, p. 49.)
  > ----------
  > 
  > Page 503
  > 
  > includes the 'head' of their privilege, the 'heart' of their 
  spiritual growth? Saith the Scripture: - 
  > 
  > "He who wipeth not away the filth with which the parent's body may 
  have been defiled by an enemy, neither loves the parent nor honours 
  himself. He who defendeth not the persecuted and the helpless, who 
  giveth not of his food to the starving nor draweth water from his 
  well for the thirsty, hath been born too soon in human shape. "
  > 
  > http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_ 
  052.htm
  > 
  > M. Sufilight
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Pedro Oliveira 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:01 AM
  > Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  > 
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
  > theosophy@ .> wrote:
  > 
  > > So therefore I would keep recommending: Stop selling books by C. 
  > W. Leadbeater and his LLC Church.
  > 
  > Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to 
  > those interested to attend? As a matter of fact, why stop at 
  > Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's, 
  > Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?
  > 
  > In view of the statemts included in it, such as the ones below, 
  > should not "The Secret Doctrine" be also considered as a book whose 
  > sale may not be allowed to go on?
  > 
  > "The Aryan views of the symbolism were those of the whole Pagan 
  > world; the Semite interpretations emanated from, and were pre-
  > eminently those of a small tribe, thus marking its national 
  features 
  > and the idiosyncratic defects that characterize many of the Jews to 
  > this day - gross realism, selfishness, and sensuality. They had 
  made 
  > a bargain, through their father Jacob, with their tribal deity, 
  self-
  > exalted above all others, and a covenant that his "seed shall be as 
  > the dust of the earth"; and that deity could have no better image 
  > henceforth than that of the symbol of generation, and, as 
  > representation, a number and numbers." (SD, vol. II, p. 470)
  > 
  > "But Phallic worship has developed only with the gradual loss of 
  the 
  > keys to the inner meaning of religious symbols; and there was a day 
  > when the Israelites had beliefs as pure as the Aryans have. But now 
  > Judaism, built solely on Phallic worship, has become one of the 
  > latest creeds in Asia, and theologically a religion of hate and 
  > malice toward everyone and everything outside themselves. Philo 
  > Judæus shows what was the genuine Hebrew faith. The sacred 
  Writings, 
  > he says, prescribe what we ought to do . . . commanding us to hate 
  > the heathen and their laws and institutions. They did hate Baal or 
  > Bacchus worship publicly, but left its worst features to be 
  followed 
  > secretly; and it is with the Talmudic Jews that the grand symbols 
  of 
  > nature were the most profaned. With them, as now shown by the 
  > discovery of the key to the correct Bible reading - Geometry, the 
  > fifth divine Science ("fifth" - because it is the fifth key in the 
  > series of the Seven Keys to the Universal esoteric language and 
  > symbology) was desecrated, and by them applied to conceal the most 
  > terrestrial and grossly sexual mysteries, wherein both Deity and 
  > religion were degraded." (SD, vol. II, p. 471)
  > 
  > On the other hand, an easier solution would be to allow people the 
  > freedom to choose what they want to read and study. Alas, this has 
  > always been the most difficult path to follow, particularly for 
  those 
  > bred and born with the nourishment of the received truth.
  > 
  > Pedro
  > 
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