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Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

Jan 16, 2009 12:15 PM
by Morten Nymann Olesen


Dear friends and Martin

My views are:

Martin wrote:
"However when we claim ourselves out in the open being an avatar and proof otherwise, it is a lot harder to get back on track. "

Agreed.

Martin wrote:
"And of course there are avatars and Avatars...Avatars of Light and of Darkness even...the most difficult to find are those disguised as dugpa's, the easiest who are disguised as 'avatars'"

Agreed.

Martin wrote:
"My feeling ( which have never betrayed me )"

That is wrong.
Feeling always betray anyone who is not an Avatar himsefl or herself.
You cannot base your judgement on mere "feeling" and no evidence. That is bad Wisdom teaching.


Can we hear that story about Jesus? 
(There are several of them, you know.)



M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Martin 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:52 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?


  Hi Morten:

  If we consider ourselves to be only temporary human, we could say we are all avatars. As soon as we attach ourselves to being human, we become human...then perfect human..buddha..and again avatar. However when we claim ourselves out in the open being an avatar and proof otherwise, it is a lot harder to get back on track. And of course there are avatars and Avatars...Avatars of Light and of Darkness even...the most difficult to find are those disguised as dugpa's, the easiest who are disguised as 'avatars'...My feeling ( which have never betrayed me ) tells me this Sai Baba is a fake in spite of all his nice words ( copied from books ); read his story on Jesus and you know this guy is completely gone...

  --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 8:24 PM

  Yes. I am aware of this.

  And I do find it strange, that Sathya Sai Baba, who is naming himself an 

  Avatar of the Age are allowing these accusations to pass, without doing more 

  about it.

  My problem is, that the India Court have reject any atempts of lawsauits 

  against him so far du to lack of evidence. So as long, as no concrete 

  evidence can be produced, I can hardley agree with just supporting romours. 

  The situation was and is quite different when we talk about C. W. 

  Leadbeater, and TS Adyar is painfully aware of it!

  - - -

  Remember, that Sathya Sai Baba's views on sexuality have clearly been told 

  about by himself on several ocassions.

  >>> Here are a few words written in the early days <<<

  "Do not be contented if you give some food for the worldly hunger of the 

  senses. Do not lower your ideals for the sake of cheap fame or vulgarise 

  public taste. Instead of loukika sringaram (worldly enjoyment of sex), give 

  aloukika Aathmaanandham (Bliss of the Self). Contribute to the expansion of 

  love, the purification of motives, the enlargement of sympathy, the 

  tolerance of difference, the respect for individual striving."

  (Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. IV, p. 21 - published 1964)

  http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume04/ sss04.pdf

  "You must be careful about the food you take; for, the jihva (tongue) and 

  the guhya (organ of generation) are the two great foes of man; the cravings 

  of hunger and sex drag you into perdition. Desist from catering to the 

  tongue and its greed; do not be a victim of lust or taste. Have pure food 

  and eat it in company of the pure. Be moderate in food and keep the senses 

  strictly under control."

  (Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. V, p. 9 - published 1965)

  http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume05/ sss05.pdf

  "In this world which is impermanent and ever transforming, the Immanent 

  Power of the Lord is the only permanent and fixed entity. In order to 

  realise the eternal and the true, one has perforce to attach oneself to that 

  Source and Sustenance. There is no escape from this path. It is the destiny 

  of one and all, irrespective of age or scholarship, clime or caste, sex or 

  status."

  (Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. I, p. 22 - published 1956)

  http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume01/ sss01.pdf

  "The Mahapurushas, the Mahatmas, the Jnanis, the Yogis ... will all be 

  co-operating in the task of re-establishing righteousness and clearing the 

  path for the World-at­taining Santhi. " (Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. I, p. 29 - 

  published 1958)

  http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume01/ sss01.pdf

  "Before marriage, he is half body. Before marriage, she is half body. Lady 

  is always left side. Right side is gent's. The gent's body is always the 

  right side of the wife. Now you have only one body. In Indian philosophy or 

  custom, this is called ardhangi. (Ardha means half.) Wife before marriage is 

  only ardhangi, half body. Now the left side is joined with the right side 

  and you are full body."

  (Divine Memories of Sathya Sai Baba)

  Sai Baba also says:

  'The real marriage is with God'; 'First man has 2 legs, he gets marries and 

  becomes an animal with 4 legs. They get one child, a six-legged scorpion, 

  then another, an 8-legged cockroach.'

  - - -

  Sai Baba's Yoga is of 5 parts - Dharma, Jnana, Karma, Bakthi, and Dhyana are 

  blended into one. Harmoni between head, heart and hands are your duty. 

  Thoughts should be ciltivated in your spiritual Heart, where they grow up 

  and out over the head and spreads to the joy and happiness of the whole 

  world.

  Yes. - Sure I am concerned. I am not a Sai devotee, because of the manner 

  the SathyaSai organisation is being run. Too much (almost blind) bakthi, way 

  too much to my taste. Yet the most emotional persons among us craves 

  something like that even when it is not what they spiritually NEED.

  And you are saying that none of the romours come from the Jesuits or the 

  Militant Christians in USA? None at all?

  Yet I also remain a critic of Sathya Sai Baba's acitivties regarding his 

  silences in the years after the romours and accusations. Yet no actual proof 

  has emerged so far, and that we will have to take into account.

  All those who are a treath to secterian beliefs are a treath to the Jesuit 

  and Dugpa schemes, and they will do all in their power to throw these 

  treaths to pieces.

  - - -

  I am just seeking to present a more balanced view upon the issue.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: "Martin" <Mvandertak@yahoo. com>

  To: <theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com>

  Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:39 PM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  http://www.rickross .com/reference/ saibaba/saibaba7 .html

  --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> 

  wrote:

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 5:31 PM

  Dear friends and Cass

  My views are:

  Cass wrote:

  "we shall know them by their fruits is a biblical quote. "

  My answer:

  This biblical quote is esoteric teaching for those who knows about its 

  meaning.

  Blavatsky refers to it in her book The Key to Theosophy.

  Cass wrote:

  "I didn't suggest that Krishnamurti outshone Sai Baba - I said that 

  Krishnamurti helped me whereas Sai Baba offers me nothing. His teaching is 

  not even close to Advaita. "

  My answer:

  You are dead wrong. And your answer tells me that you have only superfiscial 

  knowledge about Sathya Sai Baba's teachings.

  Sathya Sai Baba's teachings are much more close to the true methaphysical 

  teachings on Adwaita Vednata and in accordance with H. P. Blavatsky's and 

  her Masters views. - Whereas J. Krishnamurti is not allowing any Guru's and 

  Chela-realtions to exists. Only his on books - whereby he have created a 

  sect of seperatism, opposing the Wisdom teachings of ages past. - H. P. 

  Blavatsky, Ammonius Saccas and Sathya Sai Baba sought and are seeking to 

  unite the wisdom teaching from all religions. J. Krishnamurti' s teaching 

  taken as an overall teaching is an obstacle to this teaching.

  Cass wrote:

  "Krishnamurti was a boy playing on a beach when he was spotted by 

  Leadbeater. I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him 

  before his brain was fully developed. "

  My answer:

  How can a World Teacher of the Age allow himself to be discovered by the 

  Phaedofile Magician of the Age?

  There is clearly something wrong here.

  Cass wrote:

  "I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him before his 

  brain was fully developed. Apparently he was a vacant kind of kid. From K's 

  point of view, Leadbeater was offering a life less poverty stricken and no 

  doubt K's father thought this option would benefit his son. "

  My answer:

  So he was "vacant". I bet CWL liked that. And Krishnamurti' s father agreed 

  without any protests?

  How can a vacant child write a book named "At the Feet of the Master", and 

  publish it a year later in 1910 ? - Was he suddenly transformed in the magic 

  hands of CWL?

  Try to read the content of this link:

  1.

  And that was why J. Krishnamurti' s Father went to court so to avoid the 

  adoption???

  http://www.questia. com/PM.qst? a=o&d=55090725

  2.

  Evolution of Mrs. Besant. Being the life and public activities of Mrs. Annie 

  Besant, secularist, socialist, theosophist and politician. With sidelights 

  on the inner workings of the Theosophical Society and the methods by which 

  Mr. Leadbeater arrived at the threshold of divinity by The Editor of 

  Justice, Madras, 1918.

  "From Mr. Leadbeater to Mrs. Besant, September 11th., 1906:

  You know I never for a moment suggested that the Masters dictated or 

  approved such teaching. I should myself simply infer that They left me to 

  make my own discoveries, and presumably therefore did not consider that this 

  one thing out-weighs everything else, as you apparently do now, though you 

  as certainly did not think so when we were together at Benares. Both 

  matrimony and prostitution must obviously be worse, because in each case 

  they involve action upon radically wrong, is it not more probable that in 

  spite of that defect, they were willing to use what was good in me, than 

  that both of us and several other people have been consistently and 

  successfully deluded for many years, especially when you consider how much 

  good came out of the delusion. If we are to suppose the whole transaction 

  carried out by Dark Powers at the cost of infinite trouble, you do not see 

  that the balance of result of that transaction is enormously against them? I 

  suppose it is

  useless to write, because you have felt a certain line to be your duty and 

  you naturally therefore see everything from that point of view; but at least 

  do not let yourself be persuaded to think that I am still carrying on that 

  line of teaching in spite of you; I yielded my opinion to yours at once, but 

  it does not seem to have made any difference. All through the affair, I have 

  guided my self as far as possible by what I thought you would wish. (Italics 

  ours)

  (Exhibit Narayaniah Case)"

  www.phx-ult- lodge.org/ manifesto. htm

  http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ besantleadbeater lettersfull17. pdf

  3.

  "In the Court of the District Judge OF CH1NGLEPUT, 0. S. No. 47 of 1912, Q. 

  NARAYANIAH-Plaintif f

  Versus ANNIE BESANT-Defendant"

  http://74.125. 77.132/search? q=cache:NrrF7riM QYcJ:krotonaarch ives.com/ 

  Annie_Besant_ Cases_files/ 12.11.06. OS47.Besant_ Statement_ only.Vasanta_ 

  Press.pdf+ Besant+court+ 1912+judge+ Krishnamurti+ filetype: pdf&hl=da& 

  ct=clnk&cd= 3&gl=dk

  - - -

  About Sathya Sai Baba, I questions all and everything.

  What I am referring to is that his teachings have a lot in common with 

  Ammonious Saccas teachings, where he is seeking to promote a synthesis of 

  the wisdom teachings within all the major religions on the Planet. B. P. 

  Blavatsky dis the same. A synthesis of the kernal of the major religions 

  wisdom teahings is important so to end (or at least keep down) the strife 

  and battles on this planet among ignorant and non-compassionate fanatics and 

  bigots. - J. Krishnamurti only created a secterian teachings - without 

  anyone to guide you on how to use cliarvoyance and other powers. No Gurus 

  are allowed. These are important differences

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Cass Silva

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:10 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  Morten

  we shall know them by their fruits is a biblical quote. I didn't suggest 

  that Krishnamurti outshone Sai Baba - I said that Krishnamurti helped me 

  whereas Sai Baba offers me nothing. His teaching is not even close to 

  Advaita. But that is only my opinion - Krishnamurti was a boy playing on a 

  beach when he was spotted by Leadbeater. I think he was 8 years old, so 

  Leadbeater got a hold of him before his brain was fully developed. 

  Apparently he was a vacant kind of kid. From K's point of view, Leadbeater 

  was offering a life less poverty stricken and no doubt K's father thought 

  this option would benefit his son. To lay the blame at K's feet is harsh of 

  you - as soon as he was mature he saw the folly and abandoned it for his own 

  path - and who can blame him for that as it is exactly what HPB said - each 

  man's path is different.

  Sathya Sai Baba, I believe, states that he is the reincarnation of the 

  original Sai Baba with a 10 year gap between the death of Sai Baba and the 

  birth of Sathya Sai Baba. Didn't you question this?

  Cass

  ____________ _________ _________ __

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Friday, 16 January, 2009 4:05:02 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  Dear friends and Cass

  My views are:

  I have a more relaxed attitude. I follow the theosophical view: We shall 

  know them on their fruits and their teachings. (I.e. Not on romours and the 

  like.) The court in India have, when asked, rejected to do anything, because 

  of the lack of evidence.

  Yet, I entirely agree on being careful about accepting him as an Avatar.

  So why should we find J. Krishnamurti better than Sathya Sai Baba in 

  promoting the Wisdom Teachings of All Ages Past?

  Remember, that J. Krishnamurti allowed himself to be singlehandedly 

  discovered by a Phaedofile or similar named C. W. Leadbeater.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Cass Silva

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:08 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  No he is not for me Morten - too much controversy around him - claims of 

  sexual abuse too!

  Cass

  Sathya Sai Baba on November 23, 1926[1][2] - or later than 1927[3] - with 

  the family name of "Ratnakaram" ,[4] and is a controversial[ 5] South Indian 

  guru controversially described by his followers as a Godman[1][6] and a 

  miracle worker.[7][8] Several controversies including of homosexual abuse 

  [5], deciet[5] and economic offences[5] surround Sathyanarayana Raju. A BBC 

  Documentary notes that such controversies have persisted for at least 30 

  years [5]. The website of the American Embassy in Delhi, referring to Sai 

  Baba[5], warns Americans visiting Andhra Pradesh of a "noted godman" who 

  reportedly engages in "inappropriate sexual behaviour" with young male 

  devotees.[5]

  According to the Sathya Sai Organization there are an estimated 1,200 

  Sathya Sai Baba Centers in 114 countries world-wide.[ 9] The number of 

  Sathya Sai Baba adherents is estimated sometimes as around 6 million, and 

  followers cite "50 to 100 million."[10] He is considered by his followers to 

  be an avatar and the reincarnation of the saint Sai Baba of Shirdi, however 

  this has been strongly disputed

  ____________ _________ _________ __

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Thursday, 15 January, 2009 3:58:59 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  Dear friends and Cass

  My views are:

  Have you read Sathya Sai Baba's books with the SAME emphasis and compared 

  them with J. Krishnamurti' s?

  Commercials are not always objective. I think we know that.

  Try this easy one: GUIDE TO INDIAN CULTURE AND SPIRITUALITY (Q & A's between 

  Sai Baba and a Seeker).

  http://sss.vn. ua/guide_ in.htm

  Here are writings given by Sathya Sai Baba - taken down by a near follow 

  named N. Kasturi.

  http://www.sssbpt. info

  A book about the Avatar and the allegations etc etc.

  "SATHYA SAI BABA AS AVATAR" by Michael James Spurr, 2007, 450 pages

  http://ir.canterbur y.ac.nz/bitstrea m/10092/1025/ 1/thesis_ fulltext. pdf

  Sathya Sai Baba's teachings are called Purusothama Yoga (Something like - 

  Karma, Bakhti, Jnana blended all one in one. Or something like the heart 

  path of Adwaita Vedanta.)

  - - -

  Those interested will find a disagreement in dead letters between Sai Baba 

  and H. P. Blavatsky on when the Kali Yuga began.

  One will also find that Sathya Sai Baba's teaching are very synthetic in 

  nature, similar to H. P. Blavatsky's. Whereas J. Krishnamurti' s was only a 

  pseudo-Adwaita teaching where he almost always referred to himself and never 

  to the sages and Avatars of the ancient times. And almost never comparing 

  his words with others. No chela teachings like HPB and Sathya Sai Baba are 

  in agreement about.

  And when you read H. P. Blavatsky's book a Key to Theosophy you will 

  understand the IMPORTANCE of seeking to promote, the mutual essence of the 

  wisdom teachings from a religions of ancient past and present - so to seek 

  to END all the strifes. And NOT to do like J. Krishnamurti - merely creating 

  his own doctrine and sect, without really relating it to anything else but 

  almost only his own thoughts.

  But these are my views, and are written so that some of you might catch a 

  glimpse of the true light and not a fanatical one no matter who is right or 

  wrong.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Cass Silva

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:26 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  I can only speak for myself - I gained considerable knowledge from 

  Krishnamurti concerning the ego and how it operates.

  From Sai Baba all I learnt was the materialism of trinkets

  Cass

  ____________ _________ _________ __

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009 3:58:27 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  Dear friends and Cass

  My views are:

  You wrote:

  "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher 

  would come"

  H. P. Blavatsky wrote the following in her famous book The Secret Doctrine 

  (Volume I + II):

  "The same may be said of the whole Esoteric system. One turn of the key, and 

  no more, was given in "ISIS." Much more is explained in these volumes. In 

  those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was 

  written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was 

  forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far 

  better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and 

  irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, 

  like the once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions 

  and philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and 

  lost to men, but is at last found."

  (H. P. Blavatsky "The Secret Doctrine", vol. 1., ULT-edition, Facsimile of 

  the original edition from 1888 ).

  - - -

  Now if J. Krishnamurti fulfilled H. P. Blavatsky's prediction he must have 

  been giving - as Blavatsky said in the above - "final and irrefutable proofs 

  that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, like the 

  once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions and 

  philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and 

  lost to men, but is at last found."

  Where were and are those - quoted - "irrefutable proofs" given by J. 

  Krishnamurti?

  And if Dalai Lama is the hot shot, where were or are his - quoted - 

  "irrefutable proofs"?

  And C. W. Leadbeater, who only were a clairvoyant for about 16 years 

  before he singlehandedly discovered, lo, the Teacher of the AGE - and not 

  the teacher of the decade, - where was his - quoted - "irrefutable proofs" 

  on Gupta Vidya?

  I conclude there were and are none yet.

  Whereas - if anyone since 1925 until 2009 - should we said to have given 

  such a proof, it aught to be Sathya Sai Baba despite the many bad romours 

  about him.

  Is there anyone who disagree with me on this?

  Although, I am not the one saying that Sathya Sai Baba is the Avatar of the 

  Age, despite he him self are saying that.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Cass Silva

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:57 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  How would I know?

  Cass

  Mr. J.M. Prentice followed, and Dawn is able to reproduce his eloquent 

  address in full. He said: -

  "In view of the importance of this occasion, in view of the importance of 

  the work we are starting tonight, I want - by way of introduction - to refer 

  to something which I have never hitherto referred to in public: I want to 

  tell you the circumstances in which H.P.B. died. I wish you to go back with 

  me some thirty-two years and picture a room - half bedroom, half study, and 

  see there an old woman, worn out in the work of Humanity, diseased and ill, 

  gasping out her last few life-breaths. And I want you to note that as she 

  dies a wave of despair well-nigh engulfs her, despair not for herself, but 

  for the movement to which she has devoted her life. See her seated in a 

  great arm-chair, and hear the last words which she whispers ere she dies: 

  "Tell Annie to keep the link unbroken." That was the link with the Great 

  Powers which were behind the Society and the White Lodge which was 

  responsible for bringing it into

  existence. I want to tell you something of the happenings in the years 

  that have followed since then, and how Annie, who is, of course, Mrs. 

  Besant, has acted in regard to keeping the link unbroken. It is a sad story. 

  It is the story of one who failed to reach the level of greatness indicated 

  for her, who failed so utterly as to make H.P.B.'s despair understandable 

  now.

  "Within two years of Blavatsky's death the lust for power that has been 

  such a feature of Mrs. Besant's career manifested itself, and that dominant 

  pride of personality that H.P.B. had so severely rebuked, had shown itself. 

  In 1892 (3-4), there was - what shall I call it? - a conflict between two of 

  the personalities that were left in charge of the movement, and the result 

  of the clash was the ruinous experience known as the Judge secession in 

  1895. There is little profit in reviewing all the details, but I want to say 

  this: it was largely the result of Annie Besant's work, of her failure to 

  understand the principles of universal brotherhood, that the movement was 

  well-nigh wrecked then. That section of the movement which followed Mr. 

  Judge in 1895 passed, after his death in 1896, into the hands of Mrs. 

  Katherine Tingley, who is still the leader of a comparatively small section 

  of the Theosophical Society, and who is doing good work.

  She has devoted herself to the cause of Universal Brotherhood and world 

  peace, and we recognize the value of the work she has done in America, 

  Holland, and the Scandinavian countries; but she again, because of this 

  terrific lust for power, was not able to control even that portion of the 

  movement which came under her control, so there was a further split, and 

  that movement, that second secession, is now known as The United Lodge of 

  Theosophists, which in turn is doing a splendid work, more especially in 

  republishing Blavatsky's books exactly as she wrote them, and not as they 

  have been re-edited since.

  "The years that followed the Judge secession were marked by the 

  introduction of Neo-Theosophy. Slowly there emerges the sinister figure of 

  an old friend - C.W. Leadbeater. He

  represents all that is worst in the whole movement. In 1906, and right on 

  until 1908, there were launched round him a series of scandals that are so 

  unsavory that I am not going to inflict any of them on you. He resigned in 

  1906, and, as Mr. Gillespie has told you, he went out originally with the 

  unsparing condemnation of Mrs. Besant. However, she very soon brought him 

  back, because she found him necessary in supplying her with all the psychic 

  stuff requisite to the career on which she found herself embarked. She was 

  not able to get all the choice bits of psychic information required to feed 

  the flock of devotees with which she had surrounded herself, so, as our 

  sinister friend had already succeeded in cultivating a world-wide impression 

  that he was the greatest clairvoyant in existence, he was recalled to assist 

  her. Moreover, in connection with the appearance of some questionable spooks 

  that were construed in the Persons of the Masters at the

  death-bed

  of the President-Founder, Colonel Olcott, Leadbeater had performed a 

  signal service to Mrs. Besant by declaring, from the kindly shelter of a 

  Sicilian villa to which he had retired in the hour of his downfall, that 

  they were genuine. True, he was not there, and knew nothing of what had 

  actually happened; but so cleverly had he worked himself in a position of 

  being the mouthpiece of the Masters, that his testimony was sufficient to 

  swing over many of the doubters, and so, by his help, Mrs. Besant had been 

  elected President.

  "In 1908 he triumphantly returned to the movement, and very shortly we see 

  the first evidences of a plan which had been slowly maturing in his mind - 

  the first direct evidence of absolute departure from Universal Brotherhood, 

  and the neutrality that goes with it is in the beginnings of the "Order of 

  the Star in the East." I know that we were told, until we were sick of 

  listening to it, that the O.S.E. had no direct or official connection with 

  the Theosophical Society; but it was one of the first fruits of 

  Neo-Theosophy, it fastened itself on to the movement, and the parasitic 

  growth has drawn its very life therefrom ever since.

  "In 1911-12 there was another split. If there is anything in the world 

  that Mrs. Besant will not tolerate, it is the possibility of a rival. She 

  saw one in the person of Dr. Rudolph Steiner. It did not take long for Mrs. 

  Besant to inaugurate a plan of campaign. She saw fit to expel the whole of 

  the German Section of 2,500 members. And why? What do you think was her 

  excuse for literally kicking out all these members? Because, she said, Dr. 

  Steiner was giving a presentation of Theosophy which was Christian in its 

  nature, that it would probably be offensive to non-Christian members in 

  other parts of the world. And yet she now does everything she possibly can 

  to foster and enliven the Liberal Catholic Church, another parasitic growth 

  that has caused endless trouble in regard to the free-running life of the 

  Society. The Liberal Catholic Church is much more likely to offend 

  non-Christian Theosophists than ever was Dr. Steiner's presentation

  of Theosophy. Indeed, it has offended many of us who were nominally 

  Christian Theosophists - Christian by accident of birth, but Theosophists by 

  conviction and long study. This is just a little example of the inconstancy 

  that goes with Neo-Theosophy. And there are dozens of others. The chain that 

  H.P.B. forged by her selfless service to Humanity has been broken, not once, 

  but dozens of times, the chain that linked the world of today with all the 

  splendid workers of the past, and which should have gone on into the future 

  in unbroken splendor, has been broken into fragments because "Annie" was 

  unfaithful to the charge given to her by the dying Blavatsky, and had failed 

  to keep the particular link delivered into her hands unbroken.

  ____________ _________ _________ __

  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009 4:54:46 AM

  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  And which of them gace "irrefutable proof of Gupta-Vidya" ?

  Dalai Lama, J. Krushnamurti, or C. W. Leadbeater?

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: nhcareyta

  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:02 AM

  Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  Dear Cass

  If I may add to your discussion, your point concerning

  a teacher rather than Messiah is, from my perspective,

  well made and significant.

  Moreover, Madame Blavatsky's words "...numerous and

  united body of people..." and "..an organisation awaiting

  his arrival..." are also significant.

  As I have mentioned previously, in 1973 the Dalai Lama

  first visited the West in Europe.

  He found "...numerous and united body of people..."

  and an organisational structure ready for his teachings.

  Many of these teachings are theosophical and from Madame

  Blavatsky's masters' tradition.

  She was entrusted to bring some of these same teachings to

  the West a century earlier.

  The Dalai Lama has certainly been a torchbearer for the light

  of compassion and non-violence in the world.

  And contrary to most religions, he also teaches we have to

  discover the nature of our self, by ourselves, through

  studying our mind and not through blindly following dogma,

  despite his tradition's many dogmas.

  Kind regards

  Nigel

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@ ...> wrote:

  >

  > No I haven't - Blavatsky stated "the next impulse will find a

  numerous and united body

  > of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will

  find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for

  him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization

  awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7.

  Italics added.

  >

  > She stated a "new torch-bearer of Truth" which isn't the same thing

  as a 'new messiah' - I see no problem in translating torch bearer

  into teacher?

  >

  > Cass

  >

  >

  >

  >

  >

  > ____________ _________ _________ __

  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ ...>

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2009 8:41:05 PM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  >

  > No.

  > You wrote:

  > "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a

  Teacher would come"

  >

  > I take it that you have changed your mind or wanted to tell me

  something else.

  >

  > - - -

  >

  > And you did not answer my questions.

  > And I ask myself why.

  >

  > M. Sufilight

  >

  > ----- Original Message ----- 

  > From: Cass Silva

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:29 AM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > As I have said he was a lesser teacher - as we have mini cycles we

  also have mini teachers - if you get my point

  > Cass

  >

  > ____________ _________ _________ __

  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 8:55:54 PM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > Dear friends and Cass

  >

  > My views are:

  >

  > Cass wrote:

  > "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a

  Teacher would come"

  >

  > My answer:

  > I see no reason to believe this. A Trre is known on its fruits.

  >

  > ". . .during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is

  made by those 'Masters' . . . to help on the spiritual progress of

  Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each

  century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of

  spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place.

  Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents,

  and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has

  been given out . . . . .If the present attempt, in the form of our

  Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it

  will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when

  the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general

  condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and

  purified by the spread of its teachings . . . . but besides a large

  and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will

  find a numerous and united body

  > of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will

  find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for

  him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization

  awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7.

  Italics added.

  >

  > My answer:

  >

  > 1.

  > I did not see an Organisation awaiting his (J. Krishnamurti' s)

  arrival. He was made a Messiah by the mis-conduct C. W. Leadbeater to

  promote his and Annie Besants fantasies about a Messiah in the flesh

  as something theosophical.

  >

  > 2.

  > He (J. Krishnamurti' s) if true, came 50 years earlier than

  predicted by H. P. Blavatsky. Do any of youreally HONESTLY within

  your minds find it to be possible that H. P. Blavatsky and her

  Masters was so bad in calculating when a new out-pouring would come?

  >

  > If you compare J. Krishnamurti with other contemporary spiritual

  teacher and later teacher I find him to be a gnat in front of an

  elephant when compared with for instance persons like Idries Shah's

  teachings, Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, and even the persons behind

  the Disclosure Project on Ufology.

  >

  > 3.

  > Do you honstely find his (J. Krishnamurti' s) messages to be NEW?

  >

  > 4.

  > The body was not "united". It exploded thanks to C. W. Leadbeater

  and Annie Bests misconducts. How on earth can people find themselves

  believing, that the World Teacher of the Age was discovered

  SINGLEHANDEDLY by a man who just 3 years earlier was thrown out of

  the TS because of Sexual misconduct, something even admitted by

  himself? And a "body" which litterally en C. W. Leadbeater was

  admitted entrance to the Society again, forcing a great number of

  honest theosophists to resign?

  > Why should such an activity be the hallmark of theosophical TRUTH

  and COMPASSION?

  > I call it a disgrace!

  >

  > 5.

  > Why do you not find H. P. Blavatsky's masters being more able to

  predict the future than Annie Besant's ?

  >

  > M. Sufilight

  >

  > ----- Original Message ----- 

  > From: Cass Silva

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:48 AM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > It was Leadbeater who pronounced Krishnamurti as being the new

  World Teacher - Besant went along with it even though she should have

  known better - Messiah's are not found on beaches - I believe

  Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would

  come - Leadbeater and Besant presumed the teacher would be a World

  Teacher - a christ acting through maitreya - the whole episode

  confounds me as Besant and Leadbeater must have been aware that such

  a World Teacher would not have required any education from those

  lesser evolved.

  > I believe Krishnamurti when he reached adulthood recognised the

  bullshit - that he was not the second christ but could offer the

  world a new teaching on the self, hence his reasoning to abandon

  everything that supported the second christ claim.

  >

  > Cass

  >

  > ____________ _________ _________ __

  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 3:13:49 AM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > Yes. - Let me rephrase it:

  > And her activities when talking about J. Krishnamurti?

  >

  > M. Sufilight

  >

  > ----- Original Message ----- 

  > From: Cass Silva

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:33 PM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > Morten - you are wrong Besant did not carnalize Jesus

  > Cass

  >

  > ____________ _________ _________ __

  > From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 3:58:08 AM

  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > Dear Pedro and friends

  >

  > My views are:

  >

  > Pedro asked:

  > "Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given

  to

  > those interested to attend?"

  >

  > My answer and questions:

  >

  > Why especially seek to burn them all like revolutionaries? Why not

  just simply avoid selling them?

  > Let each person have their free choice in accordance with the Law

  of Karma. And let us tell people that we do NOT promote and sell

  these books, and that we have our reasons for not doing so. They are -

  perhaps and only perhaps - available at our libraries alongside the

  books by the Spiritists, the Christian dogmatics and other misleading

  teachings.

  >

  > Can you with your compassionate heart and conscience say to any

  beginner seeker who visits a TS Bookshop say:

  > "Try this book. It is very good. It was written by one of the best

  theosophical authors of the past 150 years, and he was indeed a good

  and wise man? Honestly Pedro, if you agree to this I will have to ask

  you: What planet do you come from?

  >

  > Pedro asked:

  > "As a matter of fact, why stop at

  > Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's,

  > Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?"

  >

  > My answer and question:

  > Each authors books and literary output have to valued in the face

  of their contents and whether the individual author stands as a

  disgrace to the theosophical teachings. H. P. Blavatsky clearly spake

  out against selling all kind of books. And TS Adyar are not selling

  all kind of books.

  >

  > Today we theosophists are faced with numerous websites bashing the

  theosophical teachings because of C. W. Leadbeaters misconduct and

  the promotion of a Messiah only 3 years after he were thrown out of

  the Society.

  > You tell them all and tell us, that we and they ALL are wrong in

  their and our views on C. W. Leadbeater dammaging behaviour to the TS

  teachings as they were given by H. P. Blavatsky and Master.

  >

  > I had to start at one place, and choose CWL. And yes, maybe other

  authors books aught to be prevented from being sold so not to damage

  the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST. What do each of you think the

  Master would say if you just would go on and sell all and everything.

  >

  > Remember H. P. Blavatsky for instance recommended reading Hargrave

  Jennings book about The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries

  (1870). And she did well doing it. Can we say the same about C. W.

  Leadbeaters books? No certainly not!

  >

  > These are some the differences in view Pedro.

  > I will avoid to promote something that damages the WISDOM TEACHINGS

  of ALL AGES PAST.

  > Whereas I find that you appearntly would allow this damage to take

  full effect in a Christian Church or something almost similar to it?

  >

  > - - -

  > Now, Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater and Alice A. Bailey promotes

  the idea of a carnalized saviour in the flesh. They do it by the use

  of pseudo-Christian vocabulary, I will admit that. But they DO it.

  >

  > H. P. Blavatsky spoke about against this idea of emotionalism.

  > And when people will teach theosophy they aught to consider the

  following views by H. P. Blavatsky.

  >

  > H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:

  >

  > In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing

  > the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a

  doctrine

  > diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu

  Esotericism

  > and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss

  > between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas

  > yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS

  > and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to

  > prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of

  > that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]

  >

  > ...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,

  > and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the

  > Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents

  > them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic

  > Wisdom. . . . [374]

  >

  > . . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made

  > Flesh. . . .[390]

  >

  > - - -

  >

  > C.W. XII, p. 501-

  >

  > (From the "Book of Discipline" in the schools of "Dzyan.")

  >

  > "1. To the earnest Disciple his Teacher takes the place of Father

  and Mother. For, whereas they gave him his body and its faculties,

  its life and casual form, the Teacher shows him how to develop the

  inner faculties for the acquisition of the Eternal Wisdom.

  >

  > "2. To the Disciple each Fellow-Disciple becomes a Brother and

  Sister, a portion of himself, for his interests and aspirations are

  theirs, his welfare interwoven with theirs, his progress helped or

  hindered by their intelligence, morality, and behavior through the

  intimacy brought about by their co-discipleship.

  >

  > "3. A co-disciple or associate cannot backslide or fall out of the

  line without affecting those who stand firm through the sympathetic

  tie between themselves and the psychical currents between them and

  their Teacher.

  >

  > "4. Woe to the deserter, woe also to all who help to bring his soul

  to the point where desertion first presents itself before his mind's

  eye, as the lesser of two evils. Gold in the crucible is he who

  stands the melting heat of trial, and lets only the dross be burnt

  out of his heart; accursed by Karmic action will find himself he who

  throws dross into the melting-pot of discipleship for the debasement

  of his fellow-pupil. As the members to the body, so are the disciples

  to each other, and to the Head and Heart which teach and nourish them

  with the life-stream of Truth.

  >

  > "5. As the limbs defend the head and heart of the body they belong

  to, so have the disciples to defend the head and the heart of the

  body they belong to (in this case Theosophy) from injury."

  >

  > (From the Letter of a Master.)

  >

  > " ... and if the limbs have to defend the head and heart of their

  body, then why not so, also, the Disciples their Teachers as

  representing the SCIENCE of Theosophy which contains and

  >

  > ----------

  > * "So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love

  to men as though they were thy brother-pupils, disciples of one

  Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother." (Vide Fragment III, in Voice

  of the Silence, p. 49.)

  > ----------

  >

  > Page 503

  >

  > includes the 'head' of their privilege, the 'heart' of their

  spiritual growth? Saith the Scripture: -

  >

  > "He who wipeth not away the filth with which the parent's body may

  have been defiled by an enemy, neither loves the parent nor honours

  himself. He who defendeth not the persecuted and the helpless, who

  giveth not of his food to the starving nor draweth water from his

  well for the thirsty, hath been born too soon in human shape. "

  >

  > http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_

  052.htm

  >

  > M. Sufilight

  >

  > ----- Original Message ----- 

  > From: Pedro Oliveira

  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

  > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:01 AM

  > Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?

  >

  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-

  > theosophy@ .> wrote:

  >

  > > So therefore I would keep recommending: Stop selling books by C.

  > W. Leadbeater and his LLC Church.

  >

  > Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to

  > those interested to attend? As a matter of fact, why stop at

  > Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's,

  > Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?

  >

  > In view of the statemts included in it, such as the ones below,

  > should not "The Secret Doctrine" be also considered as a book whose

  > sale may not be allowed to go on?

  >

  > "The Aryan views of the symbolism were those of the whole Pagan

  > world; the Semite interpretations emanated from, and were pre-

  > eminently those of a small tribe, thus marking its national

  features

  > and the idiosyncratic defects that characterize many of the Jews to

  > this day - gross realism, selfishness, and sensuality. They had

  made

  > a bargain, through their father Jacob, with their tribal deity,

  self-

  > exalted above all others, and a covenant that his "seed shall be as

  > the dust of the earth"; and that deity could have no better image

  > henceforth than that of the symbol of generation, and, as

  > representation, a number and numbers." (SD, vol. II, p. 470)

  >

  > "But Phallic worship has developed only with the gradual loss of

  the

  > keys to the inner meaning of religious symbols; and there was a day

  > when the Israelites had beliefs as pure as the Aryans have. But now

  > Judaism, built solely on Phallic worship, has become one of the

  > latest creeds in Asia, and theologically a religion of hate and

  > malice toward everyone and everything outside themselves. Philo

  > Judæus shows what was the genuine Hebrew faith. The sacred

  Writings,

  > he says, prescribe what we ought to do . . . commanding us to hate

  > the heathen and their laws and institutions. They did hate Baal or

  > Bacchus worship publicly, but left its worst features to be

  followed

  > secretly; and it is with the Talmudic Jews that the grand symbols

  of

  > nature were the most profaned. With them, as now shown by the

  > discovery of the key to the correct Bible reading - Geometry, the

  > fifth divine Science ("fifth" - because it is the fifth key in the

  > series of the Seven Keys to the Universal esoteric language and

  > symbology) was desecrated, and by them applied to conceal the most

  > terrestrial and grossly sexual mysteries, wherein both Deity and

  > religion were degraded." (SD, vol. II, p. 471)

  >

  > On the other hand, an easier solution would be to allow people the

  > freedom to choose what they want to read and study. Alas, this has

  > always been the most difficult path to follow, particularly for

  those

  > bred and born with the nourishment of the received truth.

  >

  > Pedro

  >

  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  >

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