Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00145)

Dear Govert,

well, to give you a whole truth answer, you should ask me afte rmy return 
from Shambhalla.
In the meantime in is the result of my 20 years study of Blavatsky I am 
coming to the conclusion is that Theosophy in general is not a finished 
work, is is ever becoming.
So it is not recommended on any occult topic to stop thinking, to stop 
research and claim: I have the whole.

As we have contradicting statements from HPB and her teachers it can also be 
that a figure here and then is exactly, who knows?
One should decide it not before one has reached the same level of knowledge 
and must not erect dogmas of the own mindset before.
Breaking the moulds of minds - was HPB'S motto.

We are as students always in danger to come to incorrect conclusions, we 
should avoid fanatical conclusions and not forget, that we are just 
beginners and not experts.

That mindset it is what I have to reject on Besant - not, that she has tried 
to proof and find out for herself. But that she errected dogmas and became 
fanatical - which is always typical for convertites - and poses even as a 
teacher, while she was only an expulsed recorder of the teachings and Joint 
Outer Head on probation. not fixed.

When she re-opened an E.S. of her own in 1897 she considered not the 
warnings of HPB that a fallen chela errs and forgets the teachings (probably 
not all the information, but the keys, the common overwie, the higher 
understanding). But obviously a fallen chela whose mind is confused may not 
remember the warnings, whose oversights resulted in the fall.
OTOH, a fallen chela is not to be blamed, as he/she has tried. Much worse 
are the cases, were people do not try.

With her fanatical style of spreading half-true, more exoteric versions of 
what she has heard, Besant provoked the counter reaction, which forced the 
Masters via Tingley for counter propaganda, which resulted in much quarrels. 
But the quarrels were also healsome for the Movements, otherwise it had died 
out soon.

So in answering your question I have always felt, that no theosophical 
lineage has the whole. Each author hands down information, which no other 
has, and only a comparision all teachings and traditions and not their 
suppression can lead to progress.

Frank

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 6:47 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race


Dear Frank,

Are you saying that 1) as EXACT figures are not given out, and 2) as
some figures were given, therefore 3) non of the figures given are exact?

If so, any use of figures derived from HPB's work will generate
incorrect conclusions.

Govert

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Govert, hi all,
>
> HPB states several times, that and why exact occult figures and
numbers are not be given out, which is the same as with the Jesus of
the bible, whom the editors of the gospels lay similar arguments into
his mouth.
>
> Here is only one example:
> "For the figures belonging to the Occult calculations cannot be
given Ãâ" as the Masters have many times declared Ãâ" outside the
circle of pledged chelas, and not even these can break the rules."
> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-09.htm
>
> Comparing her 5th sub-race quote with her other quote of the
cataclysm in 16,000 years, it is quite clear that with dead-letter
reading one comes not to the truth.
>
> In the preface to the "Key" she states, that theosophy is not for
the mental lazy, i.e., those who study theosophy are forced to think
and by thinking they can understand theosophy and the the path becomes
the aim.
>
> Those, who do not think, but believe blindly and/or use theosophy
for their selfing ends and pose as teachers, teaching innocent people
pseudo-theosophy, can be found guilty by a Mr Watson of being unfit to
understand the message. One, who is unfit to understand the message,
cannot be the messenger. So the message and the messanger are always a
unit.
>
> Besant sat at the feet of the world teacher, but did not know her.
Ok, there must be always somebody, who plays the role of the bad cop.
But sad for Annie.
> HPB spoke often about the coming world wars, as Franz Hartmann
reports. She warned against an "Empire in embryo", which would bring
suffering over the world.
> Annie and Charlie in their exaggerated patriotism for the their
country and the Crown believed it was the land, where the His
Majesty's grandson ruled.
> There was but a little error in their calculations. Although Germany
was nearly destroyed by the Jeusits, as HPB states, she was in the
mean of time able to recover soon and a lot of genius souls came in
and Bismarck with the advise of an adept in the Black Forest,a s HPB
states, was able to reu-nite many German states in 1871 (without f.e.
of Holland, which decided after the Jesuit separation in 1648 from the
Reich). So, when Annie joint the TS in 1889, the new Empire was
already born (if this picture fits, because it was never really away),
therefore Germany was no embryo.
>
> That HPB could have meant another empire with evil aims (my working
thesis), was obviously not conceivable for the two astral surfers.
> Occult doctrines misunderstood - new karma created, more suffering
for many, but the order of the Maha-Chohan fulfilled, not to interfer
with karma and give secret outs.
> So karma went its usual way without much barriers. But had
theosophists uplifted the thoughts of the masses, karma might have
been checkmated.
>
> Frank
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Govert Schuller
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:44 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
>
>
> Dear Cass,
>
> I still do not quite understand this 'blinds' bussiness, therefore I
> do not know how to agree or disagree with your statement.
>
> Govert
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > I read this the same way as you did Govert, with the blind being
> that some remain Celtic while some are Teutonic, perhaps because this
> would have been seen as overt racism when it was written - even though
> as Theosophists we know this not to be true.
> > Ãâ
> > Cass
> >
> > --- On Wed, 4/2/09, Govert Schuller <schuller@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@>
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Received: Wednesday, 4 February, 2009, 5:22 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > From the quotes below (the 'dead letter' interpretation) it looks like
> > we are in Root-race 5 (Aryan), Sub-race 5 (Teutonic). Two quotes from
> > HPB and one by 'Alpha' reflecting the understanding of a member. This
> > understanding is also reflected in a little graph by Jinarajadasa,
> > which some might call the Besant-Leadbeater interpretation, but might
> > very well be in accordance with HPB. See:
> > http://users. ez2.net/nick29/ theosophy/ lessons15. htm
> >
> > If HPB contradicted herself, and if to save her from the charge of
> > inconsistency by saying that some of her statements were blinds, in
> > what way are we to reconcile these contradictions? How do we know
> > what's a blind and what not? And if a contradiction is found and one
> > of the statements therefore allegedly a blind, does that make the
> > subject more important? Or is it possible that HPB was not able to
> > keep her globes, rounds, root races, sub-races, etc. straight because
> > of the complexity of the matter and made occasional mistakes and
> > Theosophists upon finding contradictions, would jump to the conclusion
> > that a blind was involved, even while it might have been a mistake.
> > Or, as anti-metaphysical commentators might charge, HPB's fantasies
> > became too complex for her own mind and she was not able to keep her
> > story consistent. Just thinking aloud.
> >
> > "I propose to show therefore, in my next, that as we are still only in
> > the 5th subrace of the Parent race, and none of us shall live to see
> > the 7thÃÂÃâÂ"when things shall mend naturallyÃÂÃâÂ"that it is just
as well not
> > to hang our hopes on science, whether orthodox or semi-heretical. "
> > (BCW VII, 70)
> >
> > "At the close of every Root-Race there comes a cataclysm, in turn by
> > fire or water. Immediately after the "Fall into generation" the dross
> > of the third Root-RaceÃÂÃâÂ"those who fell into sensuality by
falling off
> > from the teaching of the Divine InstructorsÃÂÃâÂ"were destroyed, after
> > which the Fourth Root-Race originated, at the end of which took place
> > the last Deluge." (BCW IX, 81)
> >
> > "Since the life-wave reached globe D in this fourth round, four
> > root-races have run their course upon it, and the fifth root-race has
> > reached its fifth subdivision or sub-race, of which we are part. This
> > fifth sub-race is said to be preparing in America for transition or
> > transformation into the sixth sub-race: it is not entirely clear
> > whether we in the United States today belong to the seventh
> > family-race of the fifth sub-race, or to the first family race of the
> > sixth sub-race. It seems certain that we are near the transition
> > point, unless there must be an intervening pralayic period." (ALPHA,
> > Path, December, 1892)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver
> Pro. Find out more
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>