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Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

May 14, 2009 02:42 PM
by Drpsionic


You can't fire me.  I'm the World Teacher.
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/14/2009 11:47:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
Mvandertak@yahoo.com writes:

 
 


Good Idea...you'r fired, lmao!

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, _Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com)  
<_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) >  wrote:

From: _Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com)  <_Drpsionic@aol.Drp_ 
(mailto:Drpsionic@aol.com) >
Subject:  Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com) 
Date:  Thursday, May 14, 2009, 4:04 PM

No, the World Teacher uses clocks and  calendars like everyone else.

Chuck the Heretic

In a message  dated 5/14/2009 2:40:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 

Mvandertak@yahoo.  com writes:

Lol, but You are merely 60 yoa...the World Teacher is  Timeless?

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, _Drpsionic@aol. Drp_  (mailto:Drpsionic@--- On Thu

<_Drpsionic@_Drpsionic@<WBR>aol. Drp_  (m_Drpsionic> wrote:

From: _Drpsionic@aol. Drp_  (mailto:Drpsionic@From: 
_Drp<_Drpsionic@_Drpsionic@<WB

(mailto:Drpsionic@(mailto:Dr>

Subject: Re: Theos-World  K the Messiah claims Adyar

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_  (mailto:theos-To: _theos-talk@ yahoog

Date: Thursday, May 14,  2009, 6:26 AM

No, I passed. The World Teacher begins his work after the  75 year and I 

joined the TS in 1978.

Chuck the  Heretic

In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 

silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:

Then you failed the world  teacher test!

Cass

____________ _________ _________  __

From: "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. From:  "_Drpsioni

<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_  (m_Drpsionic@ <WB>

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_  (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog

Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009  2:39:13 PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims  Adyar

1949

Chuck the Heretic

In a message dated 5/12/2009  6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 

silva_cass@yahoo. com  writes:

What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates  now!!

Cass

____________ _________ _________ __

From:  "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aFrom:  "_Drps

<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_  (m_Drpsionic>

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To:  _theos-talk@ yahoog

Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23  PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

Actually  all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to 

give  

the world laughing gas for the soul.

Chuck the  Heretic

In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight  Time, 

silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:

lol. I don't expect they  would all be world saviours - just messengers

Cass

____________  _________ _________ __

From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_  (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides- 

2

<_Augoeides-  222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides- 222@Au>

To:  _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ ya

Sent:  Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah  claims Adyar

Cass, 

If a "world teacher" came at the end of  every century in the form 

characterized we would have had 20 more  Jesus's all lined up in serial 

order as 

"World Saviors" a  label that I think did have some existance for a while 

during Besant -  Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my 

coursing  

of histirical records. Who has the list? 

Regards, 

John  

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Cass Silva"  <silva_cass@ silva_cass> 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  

Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific  

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

As you say  K did not repudiate the WT project what he 

repudiated was his part in  the project. I am not surprised that JK 

initially thought of himself  as the new World Teacher operating out of 

Adyar - if 

he had  run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by  

theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe  that 

his 

conscience 

would not allow him to take on a  role he knew he was not fated for. 

If we are to rely on what Blavatsky  gave us on a coming teacher we must 

also rely on her timeline.  

One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of  

this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky  

underlined 

her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY  CENTURY there will 

come...... 

One could argue then that  Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next 

world teacher and not  necessarily the man predestined to take on this 

role.  

Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived  it 

would be the vehicle for the next 

world teacher.  

Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came  back 

to haunt her! 

>From a dugpa's point of view what better  way to fragment the TS than by 

introducing a 10 year old vagrant to  the idea that he was born to be the 

next 

world teacher. Did  they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked 

the wrong  candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to  

disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the  fortress 

of truth as 

it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated  into a mish mash of psuedo religious 

and psuedo theosophical ideas.  

One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every  century 

- that he is now alive and 

kicking - and one can  assume also that the TS has failed as he is not 

represented as a  theosophist. 

Cheers Cass 

____________ _________ _________ __  

From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org > 

To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM  

Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

Dear Cass,  

I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project.  

He did not. He gave it his own interpretation. 

There might be  satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in 

the idea that  K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ 

manglings  

to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms  are 

an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al  position. 

I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled  the project 

even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as  the intended 

instruments for the coming teacher. 

K said:  "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the 

teaching.  The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is  

destroyed." 

I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying  it back to HPB's prophecy 

of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full  analysis below) 

Govert 

===== 

Reinforcing this view is  an interesting, and at first sight puzzling, 

remark Krishnamurti made  about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society 

during 

an  equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha  

Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible  candidacy 

for the 

presidency of the Theosophical Society.  "Mrs.Besant intended the land at 

Adyar [the T.S. international  headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. 

The 

Theosophical  Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) 

This  remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in  

Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and  the 

role of 

Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was  fulfilling a mission of 

the Theosophical Society, which was not stated  as one of its official 

objectives, but was given to it by Helena P.  Blavatsky--one of the 

founders of 

the Theosophical Society and  the society's main source of ideas--when 

she, at the close of her  life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 

Truth" for the later  part of the twentieth century. The mission of the 

Theosophical  Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for 

this  

"new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his  

arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove  the 

"merely 

mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties  from his path." Indicating 

the possibility of a glorious long-term  goal of this plan, she states that 

if "the Theosophical Society  survives and lives true to its 

mission...earth will be a heaven in the  twenty-first century." (10) When 

Besant was 

challenged about  her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking 

of  

"the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she  defended 

herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the  future 

mission of 

the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that  I share it, and do what 

my poor powers permit in preparing the minds  of men for that coming." 

Besant wrote that the only difference between  herself and Blavatsky 

regarding 

the coming of "the next great  Teacher" was that "she put that event 

perhaps 

half a century  later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show." 

(12)  

I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's  and 

Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative  years. 

He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to  above. If so, 

this 

might provide the ground to put  Krishnamurti' s remark in historical 

perspective, and to explain the  underlying structural similarity between 

his 

remark and  Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading 

of  

Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant  [and 

Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at  Adyar [the 

Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the  teaching [for 

the 

teacher]. The Theosophical Society has  failed [did not to cooperate], the 

original purpose [the mission of  the Theosophical Society to herald and 

aid 

the teacher] is  destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this 

digression is  to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception 

of  Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found  

the Theosophical Society not cooperative. 

===== 

-----  Original Message ----- 

From: Cass Silva 

To:  theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM  

Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of  the 

Messiah Craze? 

Quite right Govert, the TS was born in  chaos and continues on this same 

path. HPB told us that her mission  was to bring the ancient truths to the 

western world and to attempt to  stem the spiritual materialism promulgated 

by the 

roman church  and its offshoots. 

As this was addressed to a western audience, it  would require western 

spokespeople 

to transmit this knowledge  - once the knowledge was given it then appeared 

that 

Sinnett  and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their 

teachers. I  

have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and  

this is one 

of the challenges or tests of a chela. 

HPB  unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never  

waivered or 

challenged what was given to her by those she  considered far more 

knowledgeable 

than herself on both  spiritual and social questions. 

Her dissention was mainly against  outsiders - but since her demise the 

dissention 

has come from  insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for 

their  

own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.  

AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga  and 

would 

have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before  a million or so years 

- so 

either they promoted Krishnamurti  as a minor avatar they had no reason to 

claim 

a messiah state  for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own 

imagination  

and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into  

reality. JK, himself, 

recognized this as nonsense and left  their mayavic dreams to its founders. 

I am not convinced that  Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but 

perhaps 

was  overshadowed by his own daimon.? 

Cass 

Cass  

____________ _________ _________ __ 

From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  

Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 

Subject: Re:  Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah  Craze? 

Cass, 

You say the TS was already in a state of  confusion when taken over by AB & 

CWL or because of them?  

The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL  for doing 

the WT project all depend on how one would regard the  project in the first 

place. If you don't think it was genuine, then  indeed you have to wonder 

why they were doing it. If you think it was  genuine, then a whole 

different 

view of their motivations is  possible. 

BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning  in a state of 

confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis.  

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Cass Silva  

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009  8:59 PM 

Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this  Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 

I disagree Govert, the TS was in a  state of confusion when taken over 

by Besant and Leadbeater, I  believe, they believed, that a World Teacher 

would bring the TS back  to stability and would increase membership. 

She was ready to leave the  TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that 

tell us? 

I was  amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a  

university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an  

awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the  suits 

as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol 

Cass  

____________ _________ _________ __ 

From: Govert Schuller  <schuller@alpheus. org> 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com  

Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM 

Subject: Re: Theos-World  Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze?  

Daniel, 

The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some  'messiah craze' 

elements, inevitably so given the state of the human  psyche. One of the 

'craze' 

elements was indeed the 'apostle  affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed 

in. It came from Arundale's  'crazed' brain. 

To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the  conclusion that it was only 

'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from  the belief that the project was 

genuine and that therefore all  elements were genuine. 

HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to  be extremely cautious about 

such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it  to a certain extent. In the end 

it was K who failed and dragged the TS  into a state of confusion and shock 

it has not yet overcome.  

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 

From:  danielhcaldwell 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Monday,  May 04, 2009 11:21 AM 

Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her  Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 

Annie Besant on  Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze? 

++++++++++++  +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ + 

Annie Besant at her most  eloquent best: 

------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------  --------- - 

"And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His  message, 

and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great  

Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is  

definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. 

His taking  possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. 

Then He will  choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their 

chief, the Lord  Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only 

the command to  mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship... 

The first  two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C. 

Jinarajadasa,  . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini 

Arundale....  

I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our  

Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle  

of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as  

to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his  

crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.  

Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with  

Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do  

well, for so I am.' 

------------ --------- --------- ---------  --------- --------- - 

Daniel 

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