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Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

May 15, 2009 10:15 PM
by Martin


The News on wiki: 1903

February 15 â Morris and Rose Mitchom introduce the first teddy bear in America.
February 23 â Cuba leases Guantanamo Bay to the United States "in perpetuity".
March 19 â The oldest Turkish football club and giants Besiktas JK is founded in Istanbul.
October 1 â The first modern World Series pits the National League's Pittsburgh against Boston of the American League.
November 17 â The Russian Social Democratic Labor Party splits into two groups; the Bolsheviks (Russian for "majority") and Mensheviks (Russian for "minority")Â ( wasn't that the date of the Theosophical Society in 1875?).
The first box of Crayola crayons was made and sold for 5 cents. It
contained 8 colors; brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet and
black.



--- On Sat, 5/16/09, Cass Silva <silva_cass@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 1:11 AM











    
            
            


      
      OK, OK, when and where is your next overshadowing being held!! lol



Cass



____________ _________ _________ __

From: "Drpsionic@aol. com" <Drpsionic@aol. com>

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com

Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 2:26:12 PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar



No, I passed. The World Teacher begins his work after the 75 year and I 

joined the TS in 1978.



Chuck the Heretic



In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 

silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:



Then you failed the world teacher test!



Cass



____________ _________ _________ __

From: "_Drpsionic@ aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@ aol. com) " 

<_Drpsionic@ aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@ aol. com) >

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- talk@yahoogro ups.com) 

Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 2:39:13 PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar



1949



Chuck the Heretic



In a message dated 5/12/2009 6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 

silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:



What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates now!!

Cass



____________ _________ _________ __

From: "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aFrom: "_Drps

<_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic>

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog

Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23 PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar



Actually all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to 

give 

the world laughing gas for the soul.



Chuck the Heretic



In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 

silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:



lol. I don't expect they would all be world saviours - just messengers

Cass



____________ _________ _________ __

From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides- 

2

<_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides- 222@Au>

To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ ya

Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar



Cass, 

If a "world teacher" came at the end of every century in the form 

characterized we would have had 20 more Jesus's all lined up in serial 

order as 

"World Saviors" a label that I think did have some existance for a while 

during Besant - Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my 

coursing 

of histirical records. Who has the list? 



Regards, 

John 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Cass Silva" <silva_cass@ silva_cass> 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 

Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 



As you say K did not repudiate the WT project what he 

repudiated was his part in the project. I am not surprised that JK 

initially thought of himself as the new World Teacher operating out of 

Adyar - if 

he had run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by 

theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe that 

his 

conscience 

would not allow him to take on a role he knew he was not fated for. 



If we are to rely on what Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must 

also rely on her timeline. 



One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of 

this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky 

underlined 

her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will 

come...... 



One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next 

world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to take on this 

role. 



Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived it 

would be the vehicle for the next 

world teacher. 



Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came back 

to haunt her! 



>From a dugpa's point of view what better way to fragment the TS than by 

introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the 

next 

world teacher. Did they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked 

the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to 

disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress 

of truth as 

it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of psuedo religious 

and psuedo theosophical ideas. 



One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every century 

- that he is now alive and 

kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not 

represented as a theosophist. 



Cheers Cass 



____________ _________ _________ __ 

From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org > 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM 

Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 



Dear Cass, 



I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project. 



He did not. He gave it his own interpretation. 



There might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in 

the idea that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ 

manglings 

to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are 

an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position. 



I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project 

even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended 

instruments for the coming teacher. 



K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the 

teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is 

destroyed." 



I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy 

of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below) 



Govert 



===== 

Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling, 

remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society 

during 

an equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha 

Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible candidacy 

for the 

presidency of the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at 

Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. 

The 

Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) 

This remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in 

Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and the 

role of 

Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of 

the Theosophical Society, which was not stated as one of its official 

objectives, but was given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the 

founders of 

the Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when 

she, at the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 

Truth" for the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the 

Theosophical Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for 

this 

"new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his 

arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the 

"merely 

mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating 

the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that 

if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its 

mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When 

Besant was 

challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking 

of 

"the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she defended 

herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the future 

mission of 

the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that I share it, and do what 

my poor powers permit in preparing the minds of men for that coming." 

Besant wrote that the only difference between herself and Blavatsky 

regarding 

the coming of "the next great Teacher" was that "she put that event 

perhaps 

half a century later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show." 

(12) 



I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and 

Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years. 

He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so, 

this 

might provide the ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical 

perspective, and to explain the underlying structural similarity between 

his 

remark and Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading 

of 

Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and 

Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the 

Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for 

the 

teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate], the 

original purpose [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald and 

aid 

the teacher] is destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this 

digression is to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception 

of Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found 

the Theosophical Society not cooperative. 



===== 



----- Original Message ----- 

From: Cass Silva 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM 

Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 



Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and continues on this same 

path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the ancient truths to the 

western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual materialism promulgated 

by the 

roman church and its offshoots. 



As this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western 

spokespeople 

to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given it then appeared 

that 

Sinnett and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their 

teachers. I 

have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and 

this is one 

of the challenges or tests of a chela. 



HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never 

waivered or 

challenged what was given to her by those she considered far more 

knowledgeable 

than herself on both spiritual and social questions. 



Her dissention was mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the 

dissention 

has come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for 

their 

own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead. 



AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga and 

would 

have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a million or so years 

- so 

either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor avatar they had no reason to 

claim 

a messiah state for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own 

imagination 

and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into 

reality. JK, himself, 

recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders. 



I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but 

perhaps 

was overshadowed by his own daimon.? 



Cass 



Cass 



____________ _________ _________ __ 

From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 

Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 



Cass, 



You say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB & 



CWL or because of them? 



The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL for doing 

the WT project all depend on how one would regard the project in the first 

place. If you don't think it was genuine, then indeed you have to wonder 

why they were doing it. If you think it was genuine, then a whole 

different 

view of their motivations is possible. 



BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning in a state of 

confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis. 



Govert 



----- Original Message ----- 

From: Cass Silva 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM 

Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 



I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of confusion when taken over 

by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they believed, that a World Teacher 

would bring the TS back to stability and would increase membership. 

She was ready to leave the TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that 

tell us? 



I was amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a 

university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an 

awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits 

as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol 



Cass 



____________ _________ _________ __ 

From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM 

Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 



Daniel, 



The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some 'messiah craze' 

elements, inevitably so given the state of the human psyche. One of the 

'craze' 

elements was indeed the 'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed 

in. It came from Arundale's 'crazed' brain. 



To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the conclusion that it was only 

'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from the belief that the project was 

genuine and that therefore all elements were genuine. 



HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be extremely cautious about 

such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a certain extent. In the end 

it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a state of confusion and shock 

it has not yet overcome. 



Govert 



----- Original Message ----- 

From: danielhcaldwell 

To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 

Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM 

Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 

Messiah Craze? 



Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze? 

++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ + 



Annie Besant at her most eloquent best: 



------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - 

"And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, 

and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great 

Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is 

definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. 



His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. 

Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their 

chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only 

the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship... 



The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C. 

Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini 

Arundale.... 



I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our 

Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle 

of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as 

to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his 

crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King. 

Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with 

Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do 

well, for so I am.' 

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - 



Daniel 

___http://hpb.cc_ _ (http://hpb.cc_ /) _ (_http://hpb.cc_ _ (http://hpb.cc_ /) 

/) (__http://hpb.cc/ _ (http://hpb.cc/) _ (_http://hpb.cc/ _ 

(http://hpb.cc/) ) ) 



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