Theos-Talk Archives (June 2009 Message tt00518)

Dear Friends,

May I add my own perspective, which is based upon almost fifty years of 
active membership in, and observation of the Theosophical Society? 

The problem is not the International President; typesetters, proof 
readers, printers, etc. Nor is it Ms. Georgiades.  The problem is 
gossip.  Since I joined this organization in 1963, gossip has been the 
bulldozer that has unjustly ruined many a member's reputation, and 
driven many productive and creative workers for the cause of Theosophy 
to resign, or just quietly leave the organization.  I watched the 
effects of gossip overthrow a National President in 1965; undermine the 
reformist efforts of an International President in the 1970's, and 
watched numerous people have their reputations stained through gossip 
when they dared to seek an elective office in the TS higher than 
federation president.  Further, a careful study of the Theosophical 
Society's history revealed to me that gossip has been a major political 
tool and disruptive force in the TS, going all the way back into the 
19th century!

As long as gossip remains a weapon for those who are insecure about 
their position, ambitious for a higher one, or feel threatened by 
someone who might be a bit smarter and/or more capable than they are, 
the Theosophical Society will remain a third rate organization.  It is 
the Organization's high ideals and unparalleled teachings that has 
attracted members to this organization, and the less than brotherly acts 
from members of officers that have driven some of our most capable 
people away. 

When the members and officers learn not to engage in gossip; remain 
silent when they hear it from others; and  practice discerning between 
what is good for the Theosophical Movement and what hurts it, the TS 
will be well on its way to doing the work that will bring major changes 
in this world for the good of all humanity.  

Best wishes,
Jerry



robertapimenta26 wrote:
>
>
> Could it be, dear ladies that both of you are right? Perhaps the 
> International President really passed on mixed-up information to third 
> parties in the manner Mrs. Preethi describes, and was Mrs. Erica's 
> talk confirmed a month or so before she left for Adyar, exactly as she 
> suggets.
>
> Makes perfectly sense to me; a very confused head.
>
> Roberta
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Erica L. Georgiades" 
> <eletzerich@...> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Preety,
> >
> > You say:
> >
> > "Scene 3: Year 2007: Mrs Erica Georgiades arrived at Adyar after a gap
> > of several years to attend the Convention. After a few days of her
> > arrival, she comes into the office of Leadbeater Chambers to announce
> > that she is going to be speaking during the interntional Convention in
> > one of the symposiums. A couple of days after this announcement, I am
> > told that she wangled this privilege from the President by haranguing
> > the President for nearly 1-1/2 hours. How do I know this information?
> > President tells this to Uma Nilakanta, Radha Muthiah, and some others,
> > who then relate it to me and others as well, because all are surprised
> > to see that a young member of the TS is going to speak at the
> > international Convention, knowing fully well that the President does
> > not give that privilege to youngsters, and had not given that to even
> > knowledgeable young speakers like Dr Pablo Sender."
> >
> > I really doubt this information. As I went to the International 
> Convention of 2007 representing the Greek Section, and in the position 
> of secretary of the same. My lecture during the International 
> Convention was closed more than one month before my arrival in Adyar. 
> So I wonder how from Greece I could seat more than one and half hour 
> with Radhaji to ask for a lecture. I have all the correspondence 
> related to the fact in the archives of the T.S. in Greece.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Erica
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: preethi muthiah <seeker_preethi@...>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:54:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Anand's stand and the election
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear MKR,
> >
> > I am a bit concerned with the way you keep repeating that the 
> attempt to disenfranchise the members of the TS to vote in an election 
> for the President was done in order to make the President a puppet in 
> the hands of the General Council. I understand that since you have 
> never visited Adyar you (as many others who read and participate in 
> this online discussion group) would not know that we do have a puppet 
> as the President. Since she has not developed the faculty of 
> discriminating for herself the strengths and weaknesses of all those 
> who work directly under her, either at Adyar or as General and 
> Federation Secretaries, most times what does happen is that she 
> "believes" the version of the First Person who reports his/her version 
> of an event to her. For Your Information and that of many others, I 
> will describe some typical scenes that happen daily at the President's 
> Office:
> >
> > Scene 1: Year 2000. A typesetting error occurs in a book newly 
> brought out by the TPH, Adyar. Typesetter at that time is Mrs Ranjini 
> and in-charge of typesetting section is Ms Elvira Carbonell. Sushama 
> Sreenath (who is now Sushama Webber and lives in New Zealand and is 
> additionally what you would call a "nth generation Theosophist" ) goes 
> to the President to show the artwork for the cover of a book. Mrs 
> Burnier mentions the error to her. Sushama says she doesn't know 
> anything about it and blames it on Mr G. Naganathan. Mrs Burnier does 
> not clarify it with Mr Naganathan who is assistant Editor for the 
> Theosophist, but also edits books and other publications of the TPH. 
> RSB instead asks her niece Subha Nilakanta for clarification and 
> mentions that Sushama thinks it is the responsibility of Mr 
> Naganathan. Ms Nilakanta agrees with Sushama, knowing fully well that 
> Mr Naganathan is not involved with the typesetting section. Then the 
> President calls Mr
> > Naganathan and blames him without giving him an opportunity to even 
> defend himself, which defence basically includes the fact that he is 
> not at all involved in the typesetting part of book publishing. He, as 
> a fellow human and a committed Theosophist and worker at Adyar has no 
> right to defend his name. Mrs Burnier gives no one that right. She is 
> President authority and blames as she feels.
> >
> > Scene 2: Year 2001: The Theosophist, Issue June 2001. A chance 
> diacritical wrongly appears on a Sanskrit word. Mrs Burnier asks Subha 
> Nilakanta instead of Mr C.S. Raghavan who has taken up the post of 
> Officer-in-Charge of the Editorial Office after Mr G. Naganathan quit 
> the office in 2000 due to the incident mentioned above. Subha 
> Nilakanta without asking Mr Raghavan or clarifying at the Office, 
> mentions Preethi Muthiah's name. Mrs Burnier blames Preethi Muthiah 
> who works there as a Proof Reader. Mrs Ranjini who is the typesetter 
> for the Theosophist goes to Subha Nilakanta and tells her that it is 
> not Preethi's fault but her own. Subha chooses not to inform the 
> President about this. Mrs Burnier in addition initiates gossip in 
> which she tells workers at Adyar that "Preethi thinks she knows 
> Sanskrit but she does not". Preethi on hearing she is blamed and 
> gossiped about decides to quit.. Venkatesh who works at the Library 
> and helps out with computer
> > problems at the Editorial Office and other departments at Adyar 
> decides to look into the matter and is told by Mrs Ranjini that it was 
> her fault and not Preethi's and that she had already informed Subha 
> Nilakanta about this. Venkatesh goes to RSB with that knowledge and 
> information. RSB refuses to apologize to Preethi, and in subsequent 
> years, she keeps that bit of gossip and her version of the incident 
> alive. I hear these days she tells people (like Pedro Oliveira) that 
> Preethi (which is myself) left the Editorial Office in 2001 because 
> she was criticized and could not take it.
> >
> > Scene 3: Year 2007: Mrs Erica Georgiades arrived at Adyar after a 
> gap of several years to attend the Convention. After a few days of her 
> arrival, she comes into the office of Leadbeater Chambers to announce 
> that she is going to be speaking during the interntional Convention in 
> one of the symposiums. A couple of days after this announcement, I am 
> told that she wangled this privilege from the President by haranguing 
> the President for nearly 1-1/2 hours. How do I know this information? 
> President tells this to Uma Nilakanta, Radha Muthiah, and some others, 
> who then relate it to me and others as well, because all are surprised 
> to see that a young member of the TS is going to speak at the 
> international Convention, knowing fully well that the President does 
> not give that privilege to youngsters, and had not given that to even 
> knowledgeable young speakers like Dr Pablo Sender. The only other 
> youngster to my knowledge who has had that privilege would be Pedro
> > Oliveira, another Brazilian.
> >
> > Scene 4: Over the years from mid-1998 to mid-2000: Preethi goes to 
> meet the President on official work. She asks Preethi how she is 
> enjoying her work at the Editorial Office. Preethi generally tends to 
> say she is enjoying her work. But the divisive-intentione d President 
> tells Preethi that Sushama (who used to come on-and-off to offer the 
> artistic skills for book-designing and cover art) told the President 
> that Preethi is temperamental (which i was at that time) and not a 
> easy to work with (for Sushama i would not be easy to work with as I 
> am conscientious and diligent and in those days was also the immature 
> person who questioned Sushama'a habitual latecoming to work).. But 
> Preethi says nothing except to shed tears of hurt and try to defend my 
> name. I become aware by talking to others that when Sushama goes to 
> the President's Office, she is told by the President that Preethi has 
> spoken ill of her, while all i did was to shed tears and try and defend
> > myself.
> >
> > It took me 5 years to become immune to the effects of Mrs Burnier's 
> gossiping tendencies, but there are many others in the TS till now who 
> believe her version of each other, and are reacting against each other 
> without cause. This is the way the President keeps us divided, turning 
> us against each other.
> >
> > And since we were talking about the President's becoming a puppet in 
> the hands of the General Council, we might want to ask the further 
> question of why are those who opposed the move -- I oppose it because 
> I know that disenfranchising members from voting in a President 
> amounts to taking away the freedom of members to choose a President -- 
> opposing it? At the moment, the President is a puppet in the hands of 
> Pedro Oliveira, Helen Jamieson, Keshwar Dastur, Radha Muthiah, Uma 
> Nilakanta, Nandan Nilakanta, Subha Nilakanta, S.. Ramu, Dr A. Kannan, 
> N. Muthuswamy, S. Ravindran, Shailendra Agrawal, S. Harihara Raghavan, 
> Radha Harihara Raghavan, Breda and Dusan Zagar, Ricardo Lindemann, 
> Marcos Resende, etc.. All of these people mentioned can twist the 
> President according to their whim and fancy. It is quite common at 
> Adyar, for example, for one to see that those who do not impress Mrs 
> Uma Nilakanta, for example, will find that the next time they ask for 
> permission
> > to reside at Leadbeater Chambers, they will be refused that 
> permission; not because they did something wrong -- which wrong can be 
> corrected with compassion and understanding -- but solely because Uma 
> Nilakanta did not like a person's face, or perhaps he/she did not give 
> Uma Nilakanta the ego boost she needed. This is the case with most 
> office-bearers at Adyar...and perhaps worldwide.
> >
> > So as far as puppet-Presidents are concerned, we now need to think, 
> perhaps, which part of the General Council ought to have a say in what 
> the President will do....those who have only vested interests in 
> holding positions of power and authority, or those who have through 
> their lifetime of work and diligence for the TS, shown that in 
> addition to the vested interest, they also have an interest in the 
> continuance of the TS as at least resembling the TS our Founders 
> incepted...and have from time to time opposed the policies of the 
> President when they thought that these policies would harm the future 
> of Adyar and the TS worldwide.
> >
> > Fraternal greetings
> >
> > Preethi
> >
> > --- On Mon, 22/6/09, MKR <mkr777@gmail. com> wrote:
> >
> > From: MKR <mkr777@gmail. com>
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: Anand's stand and the election
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Date: Monday, 22 June, 2009, 6:45 PM
> >
> > Dear Anand:
> >
> > -
> >
> > I think that what we know of the election is just the tip of the 
> iceberg and
> >
> > we do not know all that went on behind the scenes. My hope is some 
> day we
> >
> > may have more complete information about who did what and when and why?
> >
> > -
> >
> > I have been following closely all your msgs since the start of the 
> election
> >
> > and you have been fair and helpful. Atleast you are posting msgs 
> under your
> >
> > name and not under a pseudonym or thru a front. For those who falsely
> >
> > misunderstood your stand in the election, I suggest they read all your
> >
> > messages in the theos-talk archive. When you speak truth, you need 
> not be
> >
> > concerned since you know in your heart of hearts that what you say 
> is true.
> >
> > -
> >
> > All the discussions here started with the allegation about 
> RadhaâEUR^(TM)s health -
> >
> > and that too laymanâEUR^(TM)s opinions that was shot down by 
> professional opinions.
> >
> > The pity is that none of the leaders really foresaw the need to find and
> >
> > develop young leaders. As I have stated several times, every 
> upcoming and
> >
> > growing organization are always lead by young or middle aged persons and
> >
> > not septuagenarians or octogenarians. My hope is that the 
> electioneering and
> >
> > subsequent end-run secret attempt to disenfranchise all of us and seize
> >
> > control of appointment of the president, thus make the president a 
> puppet is
> >
> > a wake up call for everyone. This may not be the last such attempt.
> >
> > -
> >
> > I also hope that those who have operated for years behind the scenes and
> >
> > kept members in the dark about the happenings understand how 
> transparency is
> >
> > urgently needed to prevent unnecessary secrecy causing more serious
> >
> > problems, keeping in mind Master KHâEUR^(TM)s warning in his 1900 
> letter.. It is not
> >
> > easy to get out of the secrecy mindset, especially if you have 
> operated in
> >
> > that environment for too long.
> >
> > -
> >
> > Keep up the good work.
> >
> > -
> >
> > MKR
> >
> > -
> >
> > Visit www.thesophy. net and enjoy all the good stuff there.
> >
> > -
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 3:10 AM, Anand <AnandGholap@ gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Dear MKR,
> >
> > > Transparency and such conditions greatly depend on the International
> >
> > > President. As all offices like ES, masonry and TS Presidency are
> >
> > > concentrated in Mrs. Burnier, she has considerable control over 
> what happens
> >
> > > in TS. Changes like transparency depend on her, to great extent. 
> For many
> >
> > > years no General Secretary dared to challenge or question Mrs. 
> Burnier for
> >
> > > the reasons Annie Besant mentioned and I elaborated further. It is 
> only last
> >
> > > year that John Algeo unexpectedly gave tough fight in Presidential 
> election.
> >
> > > Supporters of Mrs. Burnier won't like it. But such election 
> actually is the
> >
> > > sign that democracy exists to some extent. Suppose John Algeo had 
> announced
> >
> > > two years back that he would run for the Presient, would Mrs. Burnier
> >
> > > appoint John as Vice-President? I don't think she would have. It 
> appears
> >
> > > that because he challenged her in Presidential election, he is not 
> again
> >
> > > selected for any office at international level.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > In this Presidential election I was neutral toward both the 
> candidates..
> >
> > > Somebody circulated wrong message that I supported John Algeo. 
> That has made
> >
> > > some officers in Adyar TS to go against me. I don't give a damn 
> because they
> >
> > > will be damned by karmic results of their own actions.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Anand Gholap
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. 
> com>, MKR
> >
> > > <mkr777@> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > How about Tsunami? Founders getting fed up with the bickering among
> >
> > > > theosophists!
> >
> > > > MKR
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM, <Drpsionic@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > I'm beginning to think we would all be better off if Adyar 
> fell into
> >
> > > the
> >
> > > > > bay and the sharks, who are not vegetarians, could deal with the
> >
> > > problem.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Chuck the Heretic
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > In a message dated 6/21/2009 11:44:34 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> >
> > > > > seeker_preethi@ ... <seeker_preethi% 40yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Hi MKR,
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Not surprised, but only shall we say disappointed, because we are
> >
> > > > > forgetting that the TS is meant to be a spiritual 
> organization. Why
> >
> > > speak
> >
> > > > > such high
> >
> > > > > philosophy when in the end one has to lead life in the same 
> manner as
> >
> > > > > those who do not speak it or have no knowledge of it? And why 
> expect
> >
> > > then
> >
> > > > > that
> >
> > > > > one must be treated any different when one behaves in a manner 
> that is
> >
> > > > > similar to the materialistic world around? Seems more like in 
> the past
> >
> > > few
> >
> > > > > decades we have become more like the many religionists who 
> hold on to
> >
> > > empty
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > words that don't translate into every day living. So then, 
> perhaps, it
> >
> > > is
> >
> > > > > best
> >
> > > > > to break the walls of Adyar and just continue to live with the 
> world --
> >
> > > > > which is not really bad at all -- as the world is. Why pretend 
> to be
> >
> > > one
> >
> > > > > thing and then be something totally different?
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Just some thoughts.
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Preethi
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > --- On Sun, 21/6/09, MKR <_mkr777@ <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_
> >
> > > > > (mailto:mkr777@ ... <mkr777%40gmail. com>) >
> >
> > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > From: MKR <_mkr777@ <_mkr777%40gmail. mkr>_ (mailto:
> >
> > > > > mkr777@ <mkr777%40gmail. com>) >
> >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Adyar estate
> >
> > > > > To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- 
> talk@yahoogro ups..com<theos- talk% 40yahoogroups. com>
> >
> > > <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>)
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > Date: Sunday, 21 June, 2009, 1:51 AM
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > No one should be surprised. Did not one of the Masters stated that
> >
> > > human
> >
> > > > > nature is the same whether in Adyar or in London. This just 
> proves it.
> >
> > > (At
> >
> > > > > least two people were not fighting or killing each other!)
> >
> > > > > ..
> >
> > > > > MKR
> >
> > > > > ..
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 AM, preethi muthiah
> >
> > > > > <seeker_preethi@ yahoo.com>wrote:
> >
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > > Last year in fact we had a general secretary forget her 
> nuptial vows
> >
> > > and
> >
> > > > > > commit adultery in her marriage.
> >
> > > > > >
> >
> > > > > >
> >
> > > > >
> >
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