Theos-Talk Archives (October 2010 Message tt00093)

Dear Duane and friends

My views are:

1.
Duane wrote:
"You have already laid 
out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do 
not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school 
should be so I cannot join. "

M. Sufilight says:
--- "all the reasons" you say? This is not true. Try to read my e-mail again.
I openly asked some questions giving you the opportunity to make your case valid. And now you refuse to answer my very understandably important questions.

If you are saying that anyone aught to join just any school who claims to be Esoterical, just because it claims to be so, I find your view to be an unhealthy one. And now, you tell me why I am wrong in my view, if you think so?

So why should one join this particular Esoterical School and not another of the many AAB groups or non-theosophical ones? Why is this one so special?

2.
Duane wrote:
Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity 
into?

M. Sufilight says:
No, I honestly do not.
You can answer the questions. If you do not answer them, we may all wonder why? 

I have for very many years not joined a group who was not able to - clearly - show me its Constitution and Rules! Or the Pledge which need to be taken, if any! - And I will discourage anyone from joining such a group, calling it self esoterical and in contact with the the Trans-Himalayan School, when it omits these things.
And now you aught to tell me whether I am wrong in my views? And if so, why?

The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/)  claims the following:
"Sensing the pressing opportunity arising at this critical period in the history of humanity, a number of experienced students of the Trans-Himalayan Wisdom have combined forces, creating the Morya Federation to offer sincere and self-disciplining students of the Ageless Wisdom the opportunity to deepen their understanding of the Master DKâs voluminous writings and to relate them to the great works of other theosophically inspired authors such as Helena Blavatsky (HPB), author of The Secret Doctrine; Helena Roerich, amanuensis for the Agni Yoga Books inspired by Master Morya, and, other significant authors in the field of philosophical esotericism."

M. Sufilight says:
Now anyone can claim this. The question is whether ALL these students will come forward and name themselves and not hide behind the Internet as scared chickens?
I am not prepared to be taught by invisible no-bodies. And I think very few persons are! - I will have to know who those self-proclaimed students really are. Why not be honest about it?

It seems that the main person behind it is Michael Robbins and his wife (when we follow the bottom link to a Facebook website at the website http://www.moryafederation.net/.)

A QUESTION:
It is a bit new to me, that Michael Robbins claims to be in contact with the Himalayan Masters. Have any of you heard about this before?

The problem is as I see it the following:
 The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/) invites people to become members of its group - without - clearly stating whether it want money for it, - without - clearly stating whether it is a genuine Esoteric School - where its leader(s) have a daily continous contact with a Master. And without clearly stating whether it is a non-political group. Becuase, - if this group does not forward such claims - it can only be called a spurious Esoteric School at best. Anyone can claim to be Esoteric, but the question anyone will have to ask is whether we have a GENUINE School here or something else. Are you now saying that it is irrelvant to ask such questions? And are you not in your reply to me at the same time saying: Do not think, just JOIN US?

Duane wrote:
"You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all the 
reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you 
will never know will you?"

M. Sufilight says:
Now, according to my book, one cannot as an honest and TRUE initiate advertize about meditation and service to humanity, especially when they forward the AAB books as something which should merely be BELIEVED (and not known or properly examined) to be healthy, while they completely ignore criticism - and almost automatically gives any critical view about the AAB books the big boot. Is this not the real truth? And is such a view a healthy one?

Leaders who continously avoid responding to honest and wellmeant criticism are not trustworthy. There are certain leaders who, will not listen to criticism, they have a bad blockage when it come to this issue. And I do now what we call those leaders. We call them: Narrowminded and Blocked leaders.

The difference I have experienced between Blavatsky theossophists and AAB followers is exactly this lack of self-critical examination about the AAB books and all other authors among AAB-folllowers - something Blavatsky theosophists find to be an unhealty attitude on their part.

- - - - - - -
An example is the following from the website:
"Summary of Courses Offered From Year 2 to Year 5

Descriptions of courses to be offered from Year 2 through Year 5 will be shared in detail with those who fill out an Application. Looking briefly at offerings beyond the first year, such courses, consistently advancing in depth and comprehensiveness, includeâ

    *  two years of Esoteric Psychology
    * three years of Esoteric Healing
    * three years of White Magic"

......etc. etc. and so on show me, that this School operates through the AAB books and NOT at all through an equal and open focus on the literature mentioned: I.e. Blavatsky (HPB), Helena Roerich, and, other significant authors in the field of philosophical esotericism. Not even Blavatsky's Esoteric Section operate in such a manner.
    

So, therefore I will not join this group.
But if they will provide me with their Constitution and Rules - or the Pledge which might need to be taken I might change my mind and heart.

These are just my views.
Other seekers might join this group and put their head under their arms.

- - -
Wisdom is a scare thing. It is most often not those who have the largest number of followers who are the most wise ones.


M. Sufilight



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Duane Carpenter 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:09 AM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!


    
  Dear Sufilight
  You will take the challenge âIFâ your conditions are met. You have already laid 
  out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do 
  not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school 
  should be so I cannot join. 

   
  Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity 
  into?
  HPB would be the first to admit advanced esoteric work is not done by simply 
  studying theories and memorizing facts but by an immersion through meditation 
  into our higher and more spiritual selves.  Morya Federation although based on 
  the works of AAB and HPB and demanding intellectual clarity is a school of 
  meditation first and foremost.
   
  You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all the 
  reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you 
  will never know will you?. It is said in the Pythagorean esoteric school of the 
  past we would have to remain silent for at least a year or two when we first 
  entered. Why is that? Perhaps because we might arrive at this school so full of 
  ourselves and what we know we might be passing judgment, categorizing and 
  telling everybody how thing should be when we should be humbling ourselves to 
  learn.
  That may be one of the reason few people join esoteric schools because all 
  potential candidates have all kinds of preconceived ideas about what it is 
  suppose to be. 

  If you joined would you not have all of your questions answered??
  Best Duane

  ________________________________
  From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@DpRmKATjC0vaB3asq8CWFdv7nBHsTLr70ilLjFy42AmEjeS9Jo_ZErZD5mZVt4NdQtYh83SScWGIhAu9YwwvHhZiB8Ps7A.yahoo.invalid>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 3:05:22 PM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!

    
  Dear Duane, AAB-followers and friends

  My views are:

  I do hope, that you do not mind me calling you all my friends?

  Duane wrote:
  "I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief 
  and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year 
  before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not 
  understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB."

  M. Sufilight says:
  I will take such a challenge at any time, if is possible for me, provided I am 
  given some answers first to the below questions, and if those answers are proper 
  and truthful.
  If I, who is not a Seeker of beliefs but of Knowledge, should suspend my 
  (appearntly) by you claimed "preconceived ideas or disbelief" I will first have 
  to ask you some questions. I ask them with a kind heart, and I do hope that they 
  are not being misunderstodd by any of the Alice A. Bailey followers.

  Here they are...

  *** 1 ***
  I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
  - Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it 
  has deviated from the Original Programe of the Theosophical Society as it was 
  given by H. P. Blavatsky, Morya and KH.? 

  - Or tell me why why or whether it has deviated from the programe of the 
  Esoteric Section as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky?

  The Original Programe of The theosophical Society - a few excerpts:
  "In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be 
  reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in 
  1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two 
  years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the 
  nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows:
  1. Universal Brotherhood;
  2. No distinction to be made by the member between races, creeds, or social 
  positions, but every member had to be judged and dealt by on his personal 
  merits;
  3. To study the philosophies of the Eastâthose of India chiefly, presenting them 
  gradually to the public in various works that would interpret exoteric religions 
  in the light of esoteric teachings;
  4. To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way, by 
  demonstrating the existence of occult forces unknown to science, in nature, and 
  the presence of psychic and spiritual powers in man"......."But if the two 
  Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed 
  about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society 
  should never become. Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were 
  shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
  (The Original Programe: BCW, Vol. VII, p. 145-173)
  http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v7/yxxxx_019.htm

  "CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
  The Theosophist - January 1891"
  ....
  "ARTICLE XIII
  Offences
  1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political 
  disputes shall be immediately expelled.

  2. No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section 
  or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrinas being that 
  advanced, or advocated by the Society. "
  http://www.global-theosophy.net/ts_constitution_rules.php

  I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
  Now you tell me why we should not call all Alice A. Bailey groups and even your 
  wellmeaning Morya group a Sect - using doctrinas - when they use "Bible-study" 
  and political entanglements at the United Nations and an Messiah-craze?

  Blavatsky was send to USA by Master KH and Morya's own chiefs (and not only by 
  themselves) to form a group, which among its aims was to be a - contrast - to 
  the Christian Churches. And not a group promoting "invocative" prayers to make a 
  very physical external MALE Messiah-craze - excitingly awaited - walk about in 
  the physical.

  Referring to Madame Blavatsky, Master K.H. wrote: 
  "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves 
  of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve 
  as a connecting link between that country and our own." 

  ( The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett, Letter No. 26, Master K.H.'s 
  Confidential Memo about Old Lady [HPB]. Received Simla, Autumn, 1881. ) 

  *** 2 ***
  I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
  Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it has 
  deviated from the Original Programe of the Esoteric Section as it was given by 
  H. P. Blavatsky?

  H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section has today been turned into a sham by many 
  Alice A. Bailey groups who claim to follow her footsteps. 

  Many of them claim to be following these Blavatsky footsteps while they - very 
  very carefully - avoid forwarding the view that THEY have real contact with a 
  Master. They demand huges sums of money being spend on membership fee's at their 
  Esoteric Groups - this DESPITE - that H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section never 
  required any money being paid to her.

  Other groups even claim that THEY have a continous contact with a real Master, 
  while they also demand huges sums of money being spend on membership fee's at 
  their Esoteric Groups - this DESPITE - that H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section 
  never required any money being paid to her.

  Why should we join such a openly proclaimed Esoteric Section, who gives 
  membership to almost anyone?
  What kind of esoteric agenda - so-called by itself - is it good for?

  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

  *** 3 ***

  I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
  Why should we trust a man (the so-called D.K. or else Alice A. Bailey) who take 
  most of the credit for dictating the Secret Doctrine to H. P. Blavatsky, when we 
  find many letters opposing this view by Master KH, Master Morya, H. P. 
  Blavatsky, Constance Watchmeister, HÃbbe Schleiden and perhaps others?

  Alice A. Bailey's guide named D.K. forwards his claims several times in the AAB 
  books. Here are the books and pages where Alice A. Bailey's guide named D.K (or 
  AAB her self) claims that he was behind the Secret Doctrine:
  - Alice A. Bailey - "Initiation - Human and Solar", p. 58
  - Alice A. Bailey - "The Rays and Initiations", page 255
  - Alice A. Bailey - "The Externalisation of the Hierarchy", page 685
  - Alice A. Bailey - "Esoteric Healing", p. 521, 536(?), og 565

  And not a single word of credit to Morya and KH about their involvement with the 
  book!
  We can only wonder what agenda motivates such a promotion and why we aught to 
  take such an author seriously at all?

  HPB wrote: "For the true, the genuine âMasters,â whose real names have, 
  fortunately, never been given out, cannot be created and killed at the beck and 
  call of the sweet will of any âopportunist,â whether inside or outside of the 
  T.S." (BCW, Vol. XI, p. 294 - year 1889) 

  Some words documenting that it was Blavatsky, Morya and KH who was behind the 
  Secret Doctrine:
  A. 
  The below link and its mahatma letters show me and others that it was not Alice 
  A. Bailey's guide named D. K. who as claimed wrote large parts of the Secret 
  Doctrine. It was Master KH and Morya. Blavatsky even write more than one time 
  about it to Olcott, why should she be lying about this? And why should the 
  Masters be lying about it? And why should Constance Watchmeister be telling an 
  untruth about Blavatsky's words about her readings of the Akasha and that her 
  Master was guiding her?

  The Writing of The Secret Doctrine (Remember: read the footnotes as well)
  http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/invit-sd/invsd-4.htm

  B. 
  Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky (Chapter 5)
  http://blavatskyarchives.com/wachtmeister/wachtmeisterrem32.htm

  C.
  "Another witness to such a phenomenon (during H.P.B's stay in WÃrzburg) was Dr 
  HÃbbe-Schleiden who writes, I saw a good deal of the well-known blue K.H. 
  handwriting as corrections and annotations on her manuscript as well as in books 
  that lay occasionally on her desk. And I noticed this principally in the morning 
  before she had commenced to work. I slept on the couch in her study after she 
  had withdrawn for the night and the couch stood only a few feet from her desk. I 
  remember well my astonishment one morning when I got up to find a great many 
  pages of foolscap covered with that blue pencil handwriting lying on her own 
  manuscript, at her place on her desk. How these pages got there I do not know, 
  but I did not see them before I went to sleep, and no person had been bodily in 
  the room during the night, for I am a light sleeper. [Reminiscences, 112/3]"
  (http://www.blavatskytrust.org.uk/html/trilogy_sd.htm)
  See also Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky (p. 110-113)
  A letter received by Wachtmeister from Schleiden
  http://blavatskyarchives.com/wachtmeister/wachtmeisterrem110.htm
  Or with a bit more info and extra notes by Boris de Zirkoff "The Secret 
  Doctrine", p. 13-16. (Search it here: http://books.google.com/)

  D.
  Here we have Blavatsky 's words about D.K.'s lack of grammar:
  "Letter LIV
  [Sent from Wurzburg. 1885 (?1886)

  I have a number of diagrams with reference to the evolution of the septenary 
  globes and Cosmogony of Esoteric Buddhism, made by Djual Khool and Sarma for me 
  to explain to you, and Hume during the first year of the Simla teaching; and 
  several of them I had copied by a Parsee, a good draughtsman of the School of 
  Arts at Bombay, who could not do them well -- and then, I copied them from D. 
  Kh.'s with Tibetan signs and names, translating them and doing it the best I 
  could -- since I did not want to give the originals out to a stranger and you 
  could not have understood them -- and gave them to Olcott to be copied and one 
  of them -- the one I sent to Hume I believe -- was copied by Coulomb who is a 
  very good draughtsman -- too good unfortunately [cf. Letter XLVI, page 304 of 
  this volume. -- EDS.] I remember how well he copied the few lines in English, a 
  remark by D. K. on the cosmogony -- in a way that I was astonished: it was a 
  perfect copy of D. K.'s writing, grammatical mistakes, and all. Neither Olcott, 
  nor I, nor Damodar, ever made a secret of such copies. . . . [This letter was 
  unsigned, but it is in H. P. B.'s handwriting. -- EDS.]"
  http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/damodar/dam6.htm

  - - -
  Some comments:
  I know that my questions in the above might sound harsh. But they are wellmeant.
  And I really do care about those, who are Seekers after Truth. That is a most 
  noble thing. But, I like them to avoid telling me, that I MUST absolutely follow 
  their Primary "AAB Bible-study" with political entanglements - instead of an 
  open inquiring into religious-philosophies of all kinds. - And - if they clam to 
  invite me into what they call an Esoteric Section, they aught to at least pledge 
  people (and show what that pledge is all about) and show, that they as teachers 
  know their way around in life - like H. P. Blavatsky did. And openly beforehand 
  without demanding any fee's what so ever!

  Show us this Morya groups Constitution (http://www.moryafederation.net/). If it 
  is not online its website, we can only ask ourselves why? And if it promotes the 
  AAB Messiah-craze and political entanglements, we also ask ourselves why, 
  because this is the same as promoting a dogma and cutting the political flowers 
  from the surface of the soil instead of tearing them out by the roots. And as a 
  theosophist I will not agree upon this.

  - - -
  Blavatsky wrote about why the TS carefully avoided Politics:
  "ENQUIRER. Do you take any part in politics? 

  THEOSOPHIST. As a Society, we carefully avoid them, for the reasons given below. 
  To seek to achieve political reforms before we have effected a reform in human 
  nature, is like putting new wine into old bottles. Make men feel and recognise 
  in their innermost hearts what is their real, true duty to all men, and every 
  old abuse of power, every iniquitous law in the national policy, based on human, 
  social or political selfishness, will disappear of itself. Foolish is the 
  gardener who seeks to weed his flower-bed of poisonous plants by cutting them 
  off from the surface of the soil, instead of tearing them out by the roots. No 
  lasting political reform can be ever achieved with the same selfish men at the 
  head of affairs as of old. " (The Key to Theosophy, p. 231)
  http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm

  And I guess the Master looked at TS Adyar (and its Besant politics) and the AAB 
  groups (United Nations entanglements) ...and...expressed a friendly sigh....

  Any comments?
  (No comments is also an answer.)

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Duane Carpenter 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:08 PM
  Subject: theos-talk A challenge !!!

  Hi martin

  ________________________________

  From: Martin <Mvandertak@suH2rRbF_fle4rQe2i_INCMBS_wr-ZU8sUuVmH9bLeTypUM7Z_xd47v9PEOUU5cyq_t2z8vSB4-A7VlV4g.yahoo.invalid>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 7:33:53 AM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Aurobindo's madman?

  Hi Martin
  Thank you for sharing your views.
  What AAB did by her own admission was to include Esoteric Christianity into 
  Hindu and Buddhist esoteric traditions. If Theosophy is the esoteric core of ALL 

  religions why would she not want to include Christianity. Theosophist need to 
  stop comparing Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeaters superficial analyses of 
  Christianity and read what AAB has to say. If you are saying here martin that 
  AAB failed to bring new insights into an old dogmatic Christianity that may not 
  be correct.
  Alice bailey teachings are growing exponentially in leaps and bounds as many of 
  the earlier contributors to Theosophy are declining. HPB will always be one of 
  the greatest contributors to esoteric wisdom in my experience but not 
  necessarily the only one.
  We sometimes confuse the heart of Theosophy which is inquiry into the spiritual 
  with loving or hating the messengers. 

  This is why Some Theosophists despise AAB because they see her as a threat to 
  their established dogmas and cherished beliefs. The paradox that no one has yet 
  explained to me successfully is why do so many AAB students love HPB and study 
  her alongside AAB. But those who have studied only HPB make premature judgments 
  and condemnation of AAB without an honest study of her material.?
  I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief 
  and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year 
  before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not 
  understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB.
  Best Duane

  "What is it about Bailey in particular that creates such a paranoid atmosphere 
  throughout the TS?"
  Lol, it is all about tactics...Bailey and those behind her wanted to synthesize 
  Christianity into Theosophy which is not possible...
  At the same time they wanted to bring the Old Wisdom more apprehensible for all 
  people in which they also failed...
  We have now entered a time where all religion will destroy itself from within to 

  find they were all derived from the One Religion...check my site 
  http://www.worldoftak.nl/forum/showthread.php?tid=247 

  ...sorry you will need Google to translate some of the text there...

  ________________________________
  From: kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@oaO4_3qoHawMMQdrGd-gqOzBwF5bvhH6UrLGCCchlyidgD4Nd_VvtbH9KhBKxgyULwrDJwYVONhSco5pBw.yahoo.invalid>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:21:34 PM
  Subject: theos-talk Re: Aurobindo's madman?

  This was a very contemporary article to have been written a hundred years ago! 
  As for the "dethroning of popes" that still is the main thing needed IMO. But 
  now in addition to an authoritarian mindset on behalf of the current leadership, 

  the popes of 100 years ago are untouchable, beyond criticism, still enthroned 
  even though long dead. 

  I would think that Morten and I agree about the relative value of the writings 
  of Leadbeater and Bailey compared to those of HPB. I'd be equally disinclined 
  to spend time on either one, but if others in a group wanted to study them would 

  not object, just skip those classes. But the difference in the TS is that 
  nothing negative can ever said about the former, nothing positive about the 
  latter, without making The Powers That Be extremely uncomfortable. What is it 
  about Bailey in particular that creates such a paranoid atmosphere throughout 
  the TS?

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Duane Carpenter <monad_monad_monad@...> 
  wrote:
  >
  > Great Article Jim
  > This extracted section of the article really gave important insights.
  > 
  > Aurobindo: Claims of Theosophy
  > 
  > 
  > "If Theosophy is to survive, it must first change itself. It must learn that 
  > mental rectitude to which it is now a stranger and improve its moral basis. It 

  > must become clear, straightforward, rigidly self-searching, sceptical in the 
  > nobler sense of the word. It must keep the Mahatmas in the background and put 
  > God and Truth in the front. Its Popes must dethrone themselves and enthrone the 
  >
  >
  >
  > intellectual conscience of mankind. If they wish to be mystic and secret like 
  > our Yogins, then they must like our Yogins assert only to the initiate and the 

  > trained; but if they come out into the world to proclaim their mystic truths 
  > aloud and seek power, credit and influence on the strength of their assertions, 
  >
  >
  >
  > then they must prove. It need not and ought not to be suddenly or by miracles; 

  > but there must be a scientific development, we must be able to lay hold on the 

  > rationale and watch the process of the truths they proclaim." 
  > 
  > Circa 1910/12
  > 
  > 
  > ________________________________
  > From: jamesbergh <jamesbergh@...>
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 7:12:33 PM
  > Subject: theos-talk Aurobindo's madman?
  > 
  > Ã 
  > I was reading an article by Aurobindo, Claims of Theosophy at:
  > www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/17/0015_e.htm
  > 
  > He wrote in 1910/12: ...The only member of the Theosophical Society who could 
  > give me any spiritual help I could not better by my unaided faculties, was one 

  > excluded from the esoteric section because of his rare and potent experiences 
  > were unintelligible to Theosophical guides... one who meddled not in 
  > organizations and election cabals but lived like a madman, unmattavat."
  > 
  > Could have been some other Chuck, but I wonder who this soul may have been.
  > 
  > Any ideas?
  > 
  > Jim
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >

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