Theos-Talk Archives (February 2011 Message tt00035)

Dear Katinka and friends

My views are:

The following are my understanding of the questions you asked.
Certain words might have to be defined before they are understood. There are online Glossaries on theosophical words to use.

A few sentences will have to be agreed upon and understood when I forward the below answer. There are four of them presented here in the following.

First:
Ones level of experienced Free Will is defined as depending on ones level of consciousness.

Second:
Some persons know more than other persons or beings in our universe. Some persons are simply more intelligent and more compassionate than others in this physical world with time and space.

Third:
I follow the following view about Karma. Less Karma, equals less ignorance, equals less Maya, equals a more transcended view on time and space, equals more knowledge about the difference between good and bad, equals more compassion.


Fourth:
And Theosophy is known as the EXACT SCIENCE ON PSYCHOLOGY and not the exact science on secterian behaviour nor cult behaviour.



1.
Now on whether Karma are in conflict with the human thought on Free Will.

 The scientific evidence on the existence on the Law of Karma is not possible to give to those of us who only have our five senses and our intellect. A few words might however give some readers a possible glimpse on its reality. In ordinary science we know that physics has a law on cause and effect. What some of us say is that there is a non-physical and psychological law on the same. One can state that "like attracts like" and when one plunges a stone into a small pond it creates waves, which can bee seen to oscillate forth and back until the waters come to a rest. So it also is with the human ethics and the ethical (or non-ethical) activities of human behaviour. And the existence of human conscience is connected with it. And ignorance about the difference between good and evil are directly related to ones level of conscience and knowledge about the importance and non-importance of compassion. Most people object to operate like a evil villain or an ugly evil magician when encouraged to do so - and none of them really wonders very much why? There certainly is a reason and must be a reason for it.
The Law of Karma stands as a hypothesis given to all until they perhaps are able to verify its reality, other persons may claim that they know that it is real. I have here sought to show why it really exists at least on one level of consciousness.


Blavatsky said for instance:
"Mind is a name given to the sum of the states of Consciousness grouped under Thought, Will, and Feeling. During deep sleep, ideation ceases on the physical plane, and memory is in abeyance; thus for the time-being "Mind is not," because the organ, through which the Ego manifests ideation and memory on the material plane, has temporarily ceased to function.  A noumenon can become a phenomenon on any plane of existence only by manifesting on that plane through an appropriate basis or vehicle; and during the long night of rest called Pralaya, when all the existences are dissolved, the "UNIVERSAL MIND" remains as a permanent possibility of mental action, or as that abstract absolute thought, of which mind is the concrete relative manifestation. The AH-HI (Dhyan-Chohans) are the collective hosts of spiritual beings - the Angelic Hosts of Christianity, the Elohim and "Messengers" of the Jews - who are the vehicle for the manifestation of the divine or universal thought and will."
.......
"2. THEY MAKE OF HIM THE MESSENGER OF THEIR WILL (a). THE DZYU BECOMES FOHAT; THE SWIFT SON OF THE DIVINE SONS, WHOSE SONS ARE THE LIPIKA,* RUNS CIRCULAR ERRANDS. HE IS THE STEED, AND
------------------------------
* The difference between the "Builders," the Planetary Spirits, and the Lipika must not be lost sight of. (See Nos. 5 and 6 of this Commentary.)

108                                                                                                                        THE SECRET DOCTRINE.

THE THOUGHT IS THE RIDER (i.e., he is under the influence of their guiding thought). HE PASSES LIKE LIGHTNING THROUGH THE FIERY CLOUDS (cosmic mists) (b); TAKES THREE, AND FIVE, AND SEVEN STRIDES THROUGH THE SEVEN REGIONS ABOVE AND THE SEVEN BELOW (the world to be). HE LIFTS HIS VOICE, AND CALLS THE INNUMERABLE SPARKS (atoms) AND JOINS THEM TOGETHER (c). "
(The Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, p. 38)


2.
M. Sufilight says on Neurological evidence:
The following is what I understand from the Secret Doctrine given by Blavatsky and others teachers, as well as my own experiences of our universe:
The Divine (also known as Parabrahm, Allah, Ain Soph, Adi-Buddha etc. etc. but not as God in orthodox Christian sense, nor as Allah in orthodox sense) is absolute free will, - beyond time and thought. And from "that" Karma with the Unmanifested Logos (ParaNirvana) was reflected (not emanated). The Unmanifested Logos (ParaNirvana) manifests periodically through emanation as the Logos; that which by many ordinary people is called God. And from Logos emanates the various lower levels of consciousness. - And since the Divine as Parabrahm is beyond thought and time - and beyond existence it is not, and therefore it cannot have any Karma - or limitation of Free Will. And Fohat is real (magical) knowledge, or Occult Wisdom in one aspect - and that is also the given level of Free Will or rather lack of it when viewed from one angle, because Fohat is LIFE and Force. Fohat is therefore also the electric currents of thought in the brain of each human. ( See also the two diagrams on Blavatsky's Cosmological teachings here: Master KH's diagram: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/images/est2.jpg
HPB's diagram BCW, Vol. XII, p. 524: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_053_p4.jpg - click on the diagram )


Another aspect should be added.
Beyond time or on various levels of consciousness each human being or being is aware of that it is limited in understanding its own level of Free Will - when - existing in time. - Yet at the same time it is known to it that it always "exists" beyond time and thought with Free Will (with no limitation of Will or being) - This Parabrahmic aspect is however always limited and viewed as Mulaprakriti by us humans or beings, and even by The Unmanifested Logos (ParaNirvana), because Parabrahm is even beyond any thought on Free Will.

So each human is in fact always beyond limitations on the Free Will, - Maya or Karma just bars the sight and knowledge about this among beginner Seekers - while it at the same time experience Karma and thereby lack of Free Will when limited by this Karma. Ordinary people do not know about this, they sometimes hypothize about this. Later these issues are known by the Seekers, and experienced more and more. And Later they are fully experienced. And later one is beyond any attribute, also any attribute called Free Will, - and also beyond existence, beyond time and thought - and that is Parabrahm. And The Unmanifested Logos (ParaNirvana)  is not Free Will, although some perceive it to be so, because it is still limited through lack of knowledge about Parabrahm. - Some are aware of these facts, here presented with the limitations words have, and which can be viewed on various levels of consciousness. Others are not aware of these facts, and for them these words will have to be viewed as a hypothesis until they perhaps are verified.


Blavatsky said for instance:
"ENQUIRER. Do I, then, understand that the law of Karma is not necessarily an individual law?

 THEOSOPHIST. That is just what I mean. It is impossible that Karma could readjust the balance of power in the world's life and progress, unless it had a broad and general line of action. It is held as a truth among Theosophists that the interdependence of Humanity is the cause of what is called Distributive Karma, and it is this law which affords the solution to the great question of collective suffering and its relief. It is an occult law, moreover, that no man can rise superior to his individual failings, without lifting, be it ever so little, the whole body of which he is an integral part. In the same way, no one can sin, nor suffer the effects of sin, alone. In reality, there is no such thing as "Separateness"; and the nearest approach to that selfish state, which the laws of life permit, is in the intent or motive."




M. Sufilight says:
So we influence each other very much, whether we are aware of it or not. And this is important to be aware of. And, on a higher level beyond time and thought, we are beyond duality and any influences - because influencing only occurs in time and when time exists. So what is reality and what is Karma? That depends on the level of consciousness. 

The higher a level on consciousness one reaches the more understanding of other less intelligent humans and beings Karmic needs are established.

And the level of consciousness climbs when we humans learn more about the difference between good and evil, between compassion and non-compassion, and some Sufis would perhaps say between esoteric Adab and non-Adab. - It is pure Maya not to understand that while we experiences us as limited - we are at the same time beyond the lack of Free Will -  and that we as humans in certain respects live in the past or rather in time instead of beyond time  - and that time limits us and is a Karma.


The Divine did not create the universe from nothing or no-thing. The Divine reflected it due to totally unselfish compassion beyond time and thought. Despite the fact that the Divine as Parabrahm know all and everything, past, present and future - because "being" beyond time - each human has a Free Will only limited by Karma. Because the Divine is at the innermost core within each humans own Self or self.


Summing up the questions asked:
1)
So the only conflict there exists between the Free Will and Karma is the ignorance about the realities about it - and sometimes various more or less undetected assumptions, beliefs and also more or less undetected prejudices about these views mentioned in the above. And there is the conflict that Karma limits the Free Will of each human until it is fully liberated.

2)
Neurological evidence is based on a materialistic scientific point of view, which operates without adressing the either esoteric or exoteric psychological and its branch parapsychological scientific knowledge of our modern time. Therefore conflicts might occur among those who limits their basis of knowledge about the reality they live in. An inquiring philosophical approach is less limiting.

3)
FREEDOM is a thought. Those who think they can do anything without morality having any importance are Free in their own world. But ignorance is never Freedom in any sense of the word. It is only Absolute removal of ignorance - to some of us also known as Atma-Vidya (also known as Gupta-Vidya) - through the exact science on esoteric and exoteric Psychology (with Parapsychology included as a branch of it) which leads to Absolute Freedom. And Theosophy is known as the EXACT SCIENCE ON PSYCHOLOGY (and not the exact science on secterian behaviour nor cult behaviour, --- smile).
See also the words on the scientific evidence (or lack of it) on the existence on the Law of Karma given in the beginning of the email. The Law of Karma stands as a hypothesis given to all until they perhaps are able to verify its reality, other persons may claim that they know that it is real.


To some all the above is true -  and to some these words will have to be viewed as a hypothesis until they perhaps are verified.

All the above are however just my views viewed from one level of consciousness.
I do hope they are helpful.



M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Spirituality 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:41 AM
  Subject: theos-talk Free will and karma


    
  I'm preparing a lecture for our local lodge on the topic of karma and free will. I have my own thoughts of course, but am wondering what you all think. Do free will and karma conflict? How does the neurological evidence fit in? What really IS freedom in the first place? 

  Katinka
  http://www.katinkahesselink.net/



  

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