Theos-Talk Archives (May 2011 Message tt00032)

Disagree upon what?


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 4:46 AM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"


    
  Some would disagree
  Cass
  http://theosconf.org/MAY%20ITCMAGPRINTVERSION1.pdf

  >
  >From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@hh-M_w5YKrzzEeu9v66hYBIuN2UBPgZ2Oum_GrNbH81eODKN8tW7LhMe9R2RPl4ZJ3u4Jg68F6HurEUkdA8sc0xb.yahoo.invalid>
  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  >Sent: Fri, 6 May, 2011 1:48:27 AM
  >Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"
  >
  > 
  >Dear Joaquim
  >
  >My views are:
  >
  >I agree very much with you.
  >My stance is however, that C. G. Jung was not rejecting the idea of 
  >philosophical considerations. He in fact considers the importance or 
  >non-importance of the doctrine on reincarnation etc.
  >His point of view was merely scientific - instead of fantatical or only 
  >belief-based. The doctrines on the Law of karma and reincarnation aught not to 
  >be forwarded as dogmas, but as hypothesises. Yet, I do also find that C. G. 
  >Jung's appearnt level of hesitation and reluctancy in suggesting what to put 
  >instead of these doctrines is a mistake on his part. So I will square it a 
  >little, and recommend that one seek to understand Jung's scientific approach. Of 
  >course it is not a promotion of ethics in the same manner as the promoters of 
  >the doctrines on the Law of karma and reincarnation are doinf, - this - as you 
  >seem to say, can be shown from his reluctance in considering these doctrine 
  >compared to other ethics.
  >
  >But since Theosophy early on was defined as - the exact Science on Psychology - 
  >by the magazine The Theosophist in Volume I, no 1, 1879 - I find it important to 
  >compare the two positions - as scientifically as possible - with an eye on 
  >psychological aspects as well as philosophical aspect.
  >Okay?
  >
  >Another reason is, what is a fact to me, namely that many later theosophical or 
  >esoterical off-shoot seem to do a bad job in understanding theosophical 
  >psychology and its relation to secterian and non-secterian bahviours - among 
  >various groups in society, AND, ESPECIALLY its relation to 
  >theosophical/esoterical groups as well, and how they operate, when promoting 
  >altruisme without avoiding a secterian stance.
  >
  >M. Sufilight
  >
  >----- Original Message ----- 
  >From: jdmsoares 
  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  >Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 12:31 AM
  >Subject: Re: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"
  >
  >Dear Sufilight, friends,
  >
  >Sufilight thanks.
  >
  >The works of Jung that you mentioned just prove that he doesn't know
  >anything except the lower self. He shows an almost totally contempt for
  >oriental philosophy, and many more things.
  >
  >That is comprehensible, because Jung prefers to be attached to the
  >materialistic point of view. Besides that, Jung makes constant use of
  >deliberate ambiguity and a relativistic approach to the subjects.
  >
  >So, as a student of theosophy I cannot see any philosophical value in
  >the two works mentioned in the links you gave us.
  >
  >More important, as shown in the text "Freud, Jung, And Ethics",
  >Jung's ideas are in opposition to ethics. We know that Ethics are in
  >the center of true Psychology.
  >
  >We can read in the text:
  >
  >"While Freud, though not a professional philosopher, approaches the
  >problem from a psychological and philosophical angle as William James,
  >Dewey, and Macmurray have done, Jung states in the beginning of his
  >book:
  >
  >`I restrict myself to the observation of phenomena and I refrain
  >from any application of metaphysical or philosophical
  >considerations.'
  >
  >He then goes on to explain how, as a psychologist, he can analyze
  >religion without application of philosophical considerations." [1]
  >
  >Jung uses again the same approach in the mentioned works, supposedly
  >about "Life after Death".
  >
  >One of the Mahatmas taught:
  >
  >"Exact experimental Science has nothing to do with morality, virtue,
  >philanthropy, therefore can make no claim upon our help, until it blends
  >itself with the metaphysics." [2]
  >
  >Best regards, Joaquim
  >
  >NOTES:
  >
  >[1] Worth reading "Freud, Jung, And Ethics" at
  >http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173
  ><http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=173> and 
  >http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/freud-jung-and-ethics.html
  ><http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/freud-jung-and-ethics.html> 
  >.
  >
  >[2] Read at http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/mahatma_letters.htm
  ><http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/mahatma_letters.htm>
  >
  >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...>
  >wrote:
  >>
  >> Well, allright...here are a few words...to contemplate in a
  >comparative study.
  >>
  >> C G. Jung (d. 1961) on the Law of Karma and Reincarnation:
  >> LIfe After Death
  >> http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/C.G._Jung_-_On_Life_After_Death.pdf
  >>
  >> Carl Jung's near-death experience
  >> "The unconscious psyche believes in life after death"
  >> http://www.near-death.com/jung.html
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> M. Sufilight
  >>
  >>
  >> ----- Original Message -----
  >> From: jdmsoares
  >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  >> Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 1:17 AM
  >> Subject: theos-talk Theosophy, Carl Jung and the "Tibetan Book of
  >the Dead"
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> Dear friends,
  >>
  >> There are many students of theosophy who admire the thought of Carl
  >> Jung.
  >>
  >> However, maybe most of them don't see that Jung ideas are contrary
  >> to Ethics, as Eric Fromm and others showed.
  >>
  >> There is a most interesting article that brings even more evidences
  >> about the untheosophical ideais of Mr. Jung, and his relation with a
  >> Dugpa sect.
  >>
  >> The text is published at our websites www.Esoteric-Philosophy.com
  >> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/> and www.TheosophyOnline.com
  >> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/> with the title:
  >>
  >> THEOSOPHY AND THE "BARDO THODOL"
  >> Or Examining Some Affinities Between
  >> Carl G. Jung And a Certain Tibetan Sect
  >>
  >> As it is written in the text:
  >>
  >> "If is perhaps a challenging fact for students of theosophy in the
  >21st
  >> century that a well-known thinker as Carl Jung was connected to the
  >> Ningmapa sect literature, as well as to their methods and occult
  >> inclinations. As we shall see, one of the main Ningma "best-selling"
  >> books - the so-called "Bardo Thodol" or "Tibetan Book of the Dead" -
  >had
  >> a long- standing personal influence on Jung and received an
  >enthusiastic
  >> public support from him."
  >>
  >> Direct links to the text:
  >> www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.html
  >> 
  ><http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/08/theosophy-and-bardo-thodol.h\
  > \
  >> tml> and http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=89
  >> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=89> .
  >>
  >> Best regards, Joaquim
  >>
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  >>
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